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Voice in Opensim is a vexed question, and whilst most of us don't use it for a whole host of reasons it is a very useful thing to have. But, so long as there has been a 'free' alternative, most have been happy to use Vivox. For most people Vivox is probably fine, but for some there is one very big downside to using this service: it eavesdrops.
Some years ago I was working on an Opensim based solution for remote meetings, a place where we could virtually meet. Probably the most important criteria was security and privacy, so obviously Vivox, with its policy of eavesdropping was a non-starter. I had become aware of the Whisper project, but that only worked with Opensim up to 0.7.6, and whilst the module was then still available, it isn't now. Also, the Whisper project itself was abandonware. In 2014, Zetamex announced a bounty for anyone finishing the work on the Mumble-Whisper voice module, and started a crowdfunder, which predictably, this being Opensim, raised the derisory sum of $62 from four backers... https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2014/01/zetamex-announce...
Even at the time, it didn't look as if the bounty would be claimed, as Vivox was still a viable option, so of course that's what people went for rather than for an independent voice solution for Opensim. I did try to contact the person behind the project at the time, as I would have liked to have supported the project, but they did not get back to me. The project I was working on didn't progress, but more because of the high entry threshold of Opensim/Second Life. I still have the OARs I made for the project however.
The EchoVoice project announced in late 2021 offered some promise even though the project was looking for $60k in initial funding. A cynic might think that raising a sum like that in Opensim is just pie in the sky, and so it proved. Thus far the project has raised $775 of the needed $60,000. Hypergrid Business described the project as suffering from 'delayed funding'. https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2022/12/vivox-voice-repl...
And now that Vivox seem to be about to follow through on their decision to close off access to Vivox for most users of Opensim there is now a clamouring. The writing has been on the wall for a very long time, and there have been alternative voice projects launched from within the Opensim community that have been ignored.
At the end of the day we need to take responsibility for our own project. The Opensim project needs lots of things. Opensim needs its own viewer project with all the SL only gunk removing, and arguably a more formally organised Opensim fork project is needed to properly progress the project. But I doubt that any of this will happen because no one will cough up any cash. I know there are some users of Opensim who are extremely cash-strapped, but I reckon that most could afford the odd pound/dollar every once in a while to support projects in Opensim. Even in my most financially straightened times I could always find the odd couple of quid for causes that are important to me. Now that I'm somewhat more financially secure, I can afford to indulge more, but like most, I understandably want to be sure that any project I contribute cash to has a better than evens chance of reaching its goal.
There is only one way we will get the things we want in Opensim, such as a voice module, and that is through paying for them!
EDIT
Some people commenting have adopted an intemperate and abusive tone when making comments. I've deleted a few, (and blocked one persistent offender). Some people have also posted irrelevant comments, which have also been deleted. Please keep comments civil, respectful and on topic.
Some years ago I was working on an Opensim based solution for remote meetings, a place where we could virtually meet. Probably the most important criteria was security and privacy, so obviously Vivox, with its policy of eavesdropping was a non-starter. I had become aware of the Whisper project, but that only worked with Opensim up to 0.7.6, and whilst the module was then still available, it isn't now. Also, the Whisper project itself was abandonware. In 2014, Zetamex announced a bounty for anyone finishing the work on the Mumble-Whisper voice module, and started a crowdfunder, which predictably, this being Opensim, raised the derisory sum of $62 from four backers... https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2014/01/zetamex-announce...
Even at the time, it didn't look as if the bounty would be claimed, as Vivox was still a viable option, so of course that's what people went for rather than for an independent voice solution for Opensim. I did try to contact the person behind the project at the time, as I would have liked to have supported the project, but they did not get back to me. The project I was working on didn't progress, but more because of the high entry threshold of Opensim/Second Life. I still have the OARs I made for the project however.
The EchoVoice project announced in late 2021 offered some promise even though the project was looking for $60k in initial funding. A cynic might think that raising a sum like that in Opensim is just pie in the sky, and so it proved. Thus far the project has raised $775 of the needed $60,000. Hypergrid Business described the project as suffering from 'delayed funding'. https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2022/12/vivox-voice-repl...
And now that Vivox seem to be about to follow through on their decision to close off access to Vivox for most users of Opensim there is now a clamouring. The writing has been on the wall for a very long time, and there have been alternative voice projects launched from within the Opensim community that have been ignored.
At the end of the day we need to take responsibility for our own project. The Opensim project needs lots of things. Opensim needs its own viewer project with all the SL only gunk removing, and arguably a more formally organised Opensim fork project is needed to properly progress the project. But I doubt that any of this will happen because no one will cough up any cash. I know there are some users of Opensim who are extremely cash-strapped, but I reckon that most could afford the odd pound/dollar every once in a while to support projects in Opensim. Even in my most financially straightened times I could always find the odd couple of quid for causes that are important to me. Now that I'm somewhat more financially secure, I can afford to indulge more, but like most, I understandably want to be sure that any project I contribute cash to has a better than evens chance of reaching its goal.
There is only one way we will get the things we want in Opensim, such as a voice module, and that is through paying for them!
EDIT
Some people commenting have adopted an intemperate and abusive tone when making comments. I've deleted a few, (and blocked one persistent offender). Some people have also posted irrelevant comments, which have also been deleted. Please keep comments civil, respectful and on topic.
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Most of women avatars in opensim don't use voice because there actually Dude's why ruin the fantasy. Honestly does it really matter in the virtual world of make believe.
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That old trope about virtual world women being men... I'm sure there are some in Opensim /Second Life who play as a sex other than their RL sex, but as you say, what's the issue? However your basic premise is somewhat false as anyone can use voice morphing technology to change their voice.
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I genuinely ask this as a person who is unaware of the facts. It seems that many individuals who have been part of Opensim for many years (people from 3DRockGrid but not only them, also individuals from Kitely and other historical grids, as well as various developers I've spoken to in private messages), view IMA as a kind of company (which describes itself as for-profit on its Home page) and consider it a sort of scam. They believe that many users have donated without ever seeing projects actually completed. Can you explain your perspective on IMA and why it's being seen this way? I truly mean this; I was unaware of its existence before this post. What I've always disliked is when people try to convince others by injecting the fear factor of "You won't be able to do or have anymore" or the dreadful "You'll never have." Let's be clear, a platform has its features, and if there are additional ones, that's great. If there aren't, well, there's not much to be done except adapting to what is available.
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Sadly I can speak from experience, The IMA is not to be trusted, the projects I have been witness too are mostly a con game, followed by countless excuses for the project(s) delay, or they need more money to complete it. I do agree with the need for an OS specific voice module's development. These folks at the IMA are not the people for this job.
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Discord is a popular work-around, but is sub-optimal (no spatial sound or lipsync) and there are questions about how secure user's personal data is. Discord is a little vague about whether it keeps recordings of people's conversations etc. according to this article: https://www.makeuseof.com/is-discord-safe/
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I think the problem is that we call ourselves a community, but we are not really... and if we do not evolve, it will disappear (at least I am already a dinosaur in the process of becoming extinct).
It would still be important for us to get a web viewer, like the one used by Vircadia and the integration of avatars like Unity (at least, this would seem to me a step forward). SL has created something like that, hasn't it (https://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/2023/08/02/second-life-sen...)?
For a new viewer, I have been asked about 1800 euros (we would have to see if it really works and how long it would take to build it). I really don't trust this one at all....
The truth is that I have no idea about programming, but I do contract many services to programmers and they have never given me prices as high as 60000 $ (I'm not saying it's not worth it), but there are many developers working on videoconferencing platforms that use voice, and that surely for them it would be easy and would not be so expensive. Years ago yes, but since Covid, these services have skyrocketed and there are many professionals.
If the problem with FreeSwitch is that it doesn't move lips, for me it's secondary. If the problem is the repositories and the compilation, well... it's a problem (the other day we were two of us trying to compile a viewer and there were no repositories).
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It would still be important for us to get a web viewer, like the one used by Vircadia and the integration of avatars like Unity (at least, this would seem to me a step forward). SL has created something like that, hasn't it (https://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/2023/08/02/second-life-sen...)?
For a new viewer, I have been asked about 1800 euros (we would have to see if it really works and how long it would take to build it). I really don't trust this one at all....
The truth is that I have no idea about programming, but I do contract many services to programmers and they have never given me prices as high as 60000 $ (I'm not saying it's not worth it), but there are many developers working on videoconferencing platforms that use voice, and that surely for them it would be easy and would not be so expensive. Years ago yes, but since Covid, these services have skyrocketed and there are many professionals.
If the problem with FreeSwitch is that it doesn't move lips, for me it's secondary. If the problem is the repositories and the compilation, well... it's a problem (the other day we were two of us trying to compile a viewer and there were no repositories).
Vivox is still a free solution to the metaverse. As far as I know Vivox has not said anything about ending their service to the metaverse. Other than their announcement that no new keys would be given out.
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the last thing they sent is this:
Hello,
We wanted to remind you that as of August 1, 2023, it is no longer possible to download any Vivox SDK released before 5.21.0 from the Unity Dashboard or the Vivox Developer Portal.
For those who have downloaded Vivox via the Unity Package Manager, please note that all earlier versions will be removed by August 31, 2023. If you continue to include previous package versions beyond this date, Unity projects using those versions will no longer load or compile properly.
We strongly advise updating to the latest Vivox SDK version prior to August 31, 2023, to avoid any potential disruptions.
There are no security concerns in using previous versions of Vivox SDK, and all live titles will remain unaffected.
Recommended actions
To guarantee the continued smooth operation of your Unity projects and to benefit from the latest features, please update your Vivox SDK to version 5.21.0 (Unity 15.1.210000-pre.1, Unreal 5.21.0.unr.0).
For those who have integrated Vivox via the Unity Package Manager, please make sure to update to Unity 15.1.210000-pre.1 by August 31, 2023.
If you have any questions or concerns, please don’t hesitate to reach out to our customer support team or to your Unity representative.
We appreciate your understanding and ongoing support as we work hard to offer you the best tools for your projects.
Thanks and keep creating,
The Unity team
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Hello,
We wanted to remind you that as of August 1, 2023, it is no longer possible to download any Vivox SDK released before 5.21.0 from the Unity Dashboard or the Vivox Developer Portal.
For those who have downloaded Vivox via the Unity Package Manager, please note that all earlier versions will be removed by August 31, 2023. If you continue to include previous package versions beyond this date, Unity projects using those versions will no longer load or compile properly.
We strongly advise updating to the latest Vivox SDK version prior to August 31, 2023, to avoid any potential disruptions.
There are no security concerns in using previous versions of Vivox SDK, and all live titles will remain unaffected.
Recommended actions
To guarantee the continued smooth operation of your Unity projects and to benefit from the latest features, please update your Vivox SDK to version 5.21.0 (Unity 15.1.210000-pre.1, Unreal 5.21.0.unr.0).
For those who have integrated Vivox via the Unity Package Manager, please make sure to update to Unity 15.1.210000-pre.1 by August 31, 2023.
If you have any questions or concerns, please don’t hesitate to reach out to our customer support team or to your Unity representative.
We appreciate your understanding and ongoing support as we work hard to offer you the best tools for your projects.
Thanks and keep creating,
The Unity team
Yes, but wouldn't it send a message to all it's customers? We have not received such message. Only time we received message, was in 2019, that Vivox was under new management, and no new free accounts given. We were grandfathered.
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I can't tell you for sure, I have a Vivox account and I received that message on August 16th. I have no idea what it refers to (I asked about it here a few days ago) and as for the acquired rights of a free product, I don't think they exist or at least I don't see a way to claim those rights.
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That pretty much means the same thing as time goes on the number of people with keys will reduce. As it is, Vivox is still pretty restricted unless a paid (very expensive) service is used, as the free version is restricted to 5 avatars.
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There are no other options, that's the whole point. Vivox is less and less an option for voice in Opensim. FreeSwitch is basically a non-starter and any of the other work arounds, (Discord, Skype etc) are clunky and sub-optimal. Towards the end of my comment I highlighted a general need for funding for other aspects of Opensim that need support.
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Also, at least some of us refuse to use a corporate-owned, proprietary, closed-source piece of proven spyware for voice. Especially if it has flaky Linux support on top, or it's actually Windows-only.
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That was a primary concern of mine when I was considering voice options for a project I was involved with in 2014. Voice was a necessity, but Vivox being proprietary and closed source wasn't actually a deal breaker, but the fact that it eavesdrops was.
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I've told Shelenn that the EchoVoice crowd-funding campaign has ended, and that there's no way to donate for it anymore. I hope there'll be a solution for that, and that the IMA hasn't completely given up on EchoVoice because nobody wants to fund it.
Granted, yes, there are people who are on OpenSim because they'd like to use Second Life if they could afford it, but they can't.
But I think there are also people who have expanded "Never buy in OpenSim" to "Never pay a single penny for OpenSim in any way" or something like that.
I'm actually wondering what'd happen if the free software/open-source community became aware of OpenSim. As far as I can see, they're completely unaware of its existence. What the OpenSim ecosystem lacks is not only money, but also capable coders to get at least something done until money comes in.
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Granted, yes, there are people who are on OpenSim because they'd like to use Second Life if they could afford it, but they can't.
But I think there are also people who have expanded "Never buy in OpenSim" to "Never pay a single penny for OpenSim in any way" or something like that.
I'm actually wondering what'd happen if the free software/open-source community became aware of OpenSim. As far as I can see, they're completely unaware of its existence. What the OpenSim ecosystem lacks is not only money, but also capable coders to get at least something done until money comes in.
I think that part of the problem there is that virtual worlds are so niche. Second Life can afford to pay its developers and also for a Vivox licence. Opensim suffers from a malaise common to opensource/libre projects in that too many mistake the free for free as in free beer rather than freedom. Another common error is to view opensource as hobbyware, which it most certainly isn't. Far from Openlife's view that the opensource community is full of passionate people selflessly giving up their free time to bring us amazing software the truth is that they are passionate, and they do do other work in order to keep a roof over their heads and their families in clothes and food etc, but they'd far rather that people donated money to their projects so that they could give up their day jobs and focus on their projects and bring us much better versions much sooner than is currently the case.
I currently run Ubuntu MATE 22.04 on all my machines, and each time I download and install it on one of my machines I make sure I donate the recommended $2.50 to the project. No one expects those who cannot afford that to pay, but those that can afford to pay that small amount should really do so, in my opinion.
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I currently run Ubuntu MATE 22.04 on all my machines, and each time I download and install it on one of my machines I make sure I donate the recommended $2.50 to the project. No one expects those who cannot afford that to pay, but those that can afford to pay that small amount should really do so, in my opinion.
I've deleted Harper Held's comments (and blocked them) because their initial comment was intemperate and abusive towards me and made assertions based on their very liberal and incorrect interpretation of what I wrote.
Fort clarity, of course no one should feel obliged to contribute more than they can genuinely afford, and nor should they feel any kind of guilt because they are not in a position to contribute. However, whilst I know some people are really struggling, (and I have been there) most people can afford to contribute small sums, including very small sums, if that is all they can afford.
In Wales we used to have a University of Wales, and the very first university college was funded mainly by ordinary working people contributing their sixpences and shillings. The system of healthcare now used in the UK was based on a healthcare system set up by coal miners in a part of Wales where they each contributed a small sum each week so that they and their families could receive comprehensive health care. It's quite amazing what a lot of people, all contributing a small amount can achieve.
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Fort clarity, of course no one should feel obliged to contribute more than they can genuinely afford, and nor should they feel any kind of guilt because they are not in a position to contribute. However, whilst I know some people are really struggling, (and I have been there) most people can afford to contribute small sums, including very small sums, if that is all they can afford.
In Wales we used to have a University of Wales, and the very first university college was funded mainly by ordinary working people contributing their sixpences and shillings. The system of healthcare now used in the UK was based on a healthcare system set up by coal miners in a part of Wales where they each contributed a small sum each week so that they and their families could receive comprehensive health care. It's quite amazing what a lot of people, all contributing a small amount can achieve.
I understand. It has happened in my posts as well – blocking those who are offensive. It doesn't make sense to comment in an offensive manner, even when there are differences of opinion. However, I don't share your viewpoint on this project, as I explained in the comments further below.
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I agree with alot of what you wrote. One thing I majorly agree with is how much OS needs to be focused upon and not with ANY connections, intentions or features associated with Looney Labs and SL. It is because of so much reliance on making things such as browsers and features dependent upon SL that it has caused major issues with various OS releases.
I for one use voice alot. I thought Vivox was sufficient. I have dabbled in other options being implemented. A solution CAN and WILL be found. By someone, in the near future. It HAS to be done and as you stated, the Firestorm viewer being the only browser supporting OS, it still mainly focuses itself as bending to the Looney Lab gods. Personally I am sick of the launch messages telling me those idiot Doctors without Borders needs us. No they don't and I am not going to SL to attend their retarded event. I know this is a small issue, but it proves a point, that they still stay focused on SL and OS as a second.
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I for one use voice alot. I thought Vivox was sufficient. I have dabbled in other options being implemented. A solution CAN and WILL be found. By someone, in the near future. It HAS to be done and as you stated, the Firestorm viewer being the only browser supporting OS, it still mainly focuses itself as bending to the Looney Lab gods. Personally I am sick of the launch messages telling me those idiot Doctors without Borders needs us. No they don't and I am not going to SL to attend their retarded event. I know this is a small issue, but it proves a point, that they still stay focused on SL and OS as a second.
I don't agree with you about Medicens sans Frontieres, who do vital work, often in very dangerous parts of the world, and who are far from idiots. However, I wish I had your confidence that a solution can and will be found. Whether we like it or not, the primary focus of any viewer is likely to be Second Life, unless of course the Opensim community will cough up the necessaries.
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No Glenn, your comment was off-topic and a rant irrelevant to this thread. Far from being cancelled, you haven't had your 'free speech' rights restricted or denied because you're still free to go and rant somewhere else. I have deleted comments from other people too on this thread for being irrelevant and off-topic. You will note that all of your pertinent comments remain.
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It absolutely was not, but in your mind, because you disagree with it, you label it "OFF TOPIC". Very tyrpical of an uneducated, ignorant weak minded individual. I assume you will now label THIS comment as "racist"? And of course cancel culture it.
With that addressed, I did not discuss your Frontier Sand Medicine idiocy that you found so convenient to address FIRST. You never fully read the reply and merely focused on one part thus formulating in your uneducated mind, that part was all that mattered. No matter, I will now indulge in your own tactic and give you back the Sandy Medicine you so deserve and cancel culture you. I cannot even understand the gibberish Welsh nor do I speak French. But I do speak German and Mandarin, in case you want to claim mental superiority. Please GFY very hard and I no longer value your opinion or care about your concerns. E.S.A.D. Got it? Great!! FYVM.
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With that addressed, I did not discuss your Frontier Sand Medicine idiocy that you found so convenient to address FIRST. You never fully read the reply and merely focused on one part thus formulating in your uneducated mind, that part was all that mattered. No matter, I will now indulge in your own tactic and give you back the Sandy Medicine you so deserve and cancel culture you. I cannot even understand the gibberish Welsh nor do I speak French. But I do speak German and Mandarin, in case you want to claim mental superiority. Please GFY very hard and I no longer value your opinion or care about your concerns. E.S.A.D. Got it? Great!! FYVM.
Glenn, your initial response is still there, and I was responding to you mentioning Medicens Sans Frontieres and simply stating that I disagreed with your dismissal of an organisation that does a lot of good work saving people in zones of the world where those doctors and nurses quite literally risk their lives to help people.
I did read your reply, and stated that I was in agreement.
Your subsequent off-topic rant was irrelevant to the thread.
As for being an 'uneducated, ignorant weak minded individual' It's not me who is throwing their toys out of the pram, nor making extremely xenophobic comments, nor indeed, attempting to insult your intelligence...
I never assumed that you valued my opinion in the first place and you don't know what my concerns are anyway, because Glenn, you don't know me.
You are a disagreeable, nasty little man with a lot of anger issues. Get some help.
I'm not going to delete your post, as it serves far better to show to others what a thoroughly unpleasant person you are.
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I did read your reply, and stated that I was in agreement.
Your subsequent off-topic rant was irrelevant to the thread.
As for being an 'uneducated, ignorant weak minded individual' It's not me who is throwing their toys out of the pram, nor making extremely xenophobic comments, nor indeed, attempting to insult your intelligence...
I never assumed that you valued my opinion in the first place and you don't know what my concerns are anyway, because Glenn, you don't know me.
You are a disagreeable, nasty little man with a lot of anger issues. Get some help.
I'm not going to delete your post, as it serves far better to show to others what a thoroughly unpleasant person you are.
And YOU don't know ME. Nor do you even have the ability to identify properly or distinguish between discussion, topic, subject or rant. But I am sure you will presume I am a mental-midget making late night "rants" when the answers aren't what you want to hear. Of course, another perpetually wrong judgement that I am angry or whatever flavor of the week name you will call me like oh um "xenophobic" because you have nothing else to offer in a discussion. Let's throw in some other perpetually wrong labels you internet warriors love to call everyone, how about: Nazi, Homophobe, racistphobe, regliphobe, skankaphobe, ageaphobe, genderphobe? Did I miss anything you would claim exists in Daniel Webster's big book?
Your presumption that I am angry, another perpetually wrong one. Thanks for the unqualified medical diagnosis and treatment suggestions. I am sure your basket weaving degree at community college qualified you to make that diagnosis.
And lastly, ANOTHER perpetually wrong presumption that I am "little" No, sorry Charlie, I am a 6 foott tall, 190# military veteran.
I will close this by adding, your idiotic Frontier Medicine Sand whatever the hell that is, I presume means DOCTOR WITHOUT BORDERS, is am NGO scam in which 90% of the money never reaches the MASH units for treatment and the idiot doctors are merely morons with suicidal tendencies. Go watch some videos of their heads being chopped off. I would recommend testing your theory by walking in the South Bronx at 4 am loaded with cell phones and nice sneakers, see how much a donation will help you. Then come back here and be their cheerleader, assuming you go get educated first so you can provide accurate information.
Now that we got THAT OFF-TOPIC part out, the original topic, I refuse to contribute to or answer anymore and now knowing you have read that I will cancel culture, case is now closed. FYVM, cya wouldn't wanna byahh buh bye.
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Your presumption that I am angry, another perpetually wrong one. Thanks for the unqualified medical diagnosis and treatment suggestions. I am sure your basket weaving degree at community college qualified you to make that diagnosis.
And lastly, ANOTHER perpetually wrong presumption that I am "little" No, sorry Charlie, I am a 6 foott tall, 190# military veteran.
I will close this by adding, your idiotic Frontier Medicine Sand whatever the hell that is, I presume means DOCTOR WITHOUT BORDERS, is am NGO scam in which 90% of the money never reaches the MASH units for treatment and the idiot doctors are merely morons with suicidal tendencies. Go watch some videos of their heads being chopped off. I would recommend testing your theory by walking in the South Bronx at 4 am loaded with cell phones and nice sneakers, see how much a donation will help you. Then come back here and be their cheerleader, assuming you go get educated first so you can provide accurate information.
Now that we got THAT OFF-TOPIC part out, the original topic, I refuse to contribute to or answer anymore and now knowing you have read that I will cancel culture, case is now closed. FYVM, cya wouldn't wanna byahh buh bye.
I think you just proved my point - you are a nasty, disagreeable little man, and thin skinned too! Do you also happen to be a Trump supporter? Just asking...
And, so sorry to disagree with you Glenn, ( I know how fragile the ego is of men like you) but we are all coming to see exactly what kind of man you are. All the verbal diarrhoea* proves what a thoroughly nasty and small-minded person you are.
*UK English spelling :)
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And, so sorry to disagree with you Glenn, ( I know how fragile the ego is of men like you) but we are all coming to see exactly what kind of man you are. All the verbal diarrhoea* proves what a thoroughly nasty and small-minded person you are.
*UK English spelling :)
I haven't heard much about Free Switch as an alternative solution. I have been looking into it, but I can never seem to find any up to date instructions for getting it to work on a Linux machine or any place to download it. All download links in the ancient tutorials seem to be broken. It seems you have to compile it from source or something way beyond my intelligence. It would be nice if somebody who has free switch running could write an idiots guide to installing and setting it up. (if it even works these days)
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FreeSwitch theoretically works, but is not spatial and there is no lip sync. I know the Moses project settled on it as it was something that they ran themselves and didn't have the security issues that Vivox has. It's supposedly quite difficult to set up, which is hardly ideal.
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Well I have been having to use discord to chat with friends in world, but it would be so much better if we didn't need to invite people to join the voice channel in Discord. Would be nice for people to enter the region and talk to each other without needing to faff about with Discord, Skype or whatever. Spacial audio at this point is purely a luxury that I can live without if it means we can talk in world.
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Why are they asking for $60,000? I mean, have they clearly explained what those funds are for and how they will be invested?
One thing that many people get wrong is that OS has never had its own Viewer, correct me if I'm wrong.
OS had its own viewer in the past (I can't remember the name now) and it might have another one, of course, it must stem from the official LL viewer directly or indirectly through third-party viewers due to protocol issues. Let's be clear, even though OS does its own thing, it's actually becoming a platform that largely aims to be in line with SL. For example, YEngine (which will be the only one available starting from release 0.9.3) is still focused on making LSL scripts work just like in Second Life.
The fact is that as soon as Firestorm updates a version following the progress of SL and LL, these "updates" also end up in FirestormOS. Look at the story of profiles no longer being compatible with the current OS releases. Instead of adapting FirestormOS to the OpenSim platform release, the opposite happens – a new OS release adapts to FirestormOS. Is this a common occurrence or am I mistaken? (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
The point is, I know of a grid that has its own viewer, organized in menus and login screens in a way that removes almost all references to SL. Even the support team appears with the project's name instead of "Linden" in various options. So a good level of customization can be achieved, even in a concrete way. Furthermore, this viewer allows users to log in only to the platform it's intended for, which greatly simplifies things for novice users.
In reality, this is the only platform (that uses an engine derived from OS and isn't enabled for Hypergrid) yet it has a functional viewer. The other viewers are just tampered executables with simple programs to change their names and nothing else. They are outdated versions of Firestorm that are far from secure and don't even comply with usage licenses. (For example, AviWorlds has a manipulated viewer that doesn't even install properly! Neverworld is another grid that has an unsettling viewer, but there are other grids that adopt this non-functional and unsafe system. By modifying executables with Notepad++ or other programs and decompilers, you can't release the source code, which violates usage licenses and isn't reassuring at all!).
Daiturn was a viewer dedicated to OS that many avoided because it was too similar to the SL viewer, but the author was actually working on it a lot. Now it has become a viewer for SL, and all the major teams except Firestorm are now leaning towards SL.
Then I'd like to understand, why is payment necessary? Opensimulator originates from open source, just like freeswitch, and they don't require payment, yet they're still developed. Why do these projects ask for money? Couldn't they open up on GitHub or wherever they prefer and start an open project for the development of an "Open Source Voice Service"?
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One thing that many people get wrong is that OS has never had its own Viewer, correct me if I'm wrong.
OS had its own viewer in the past (I can't remember the name now) and it might have another one, of course, it must stem from the official LL viewer directly or indirectly through third-party viewers due to protocol issues. Let's be clear, even though OS does its own thing, it's actually becoming a platform that largely aims to be in line with SL. For example, YEngine (which will be the only one available starting from release 0.9.3) is still focused on making LSL scripts work just like in Second Life.
The fact is that as soon as Firestorm updates a version following the progress of SL and LL, these "updates" also end up in FirestormOS. Look at the story of profiles no longer being compatible with the current OS releases. Instead of adapting FirestormOS to the OpenSim platform release, the opposite happens – a new OS release adapts to FirestormOS. Is this a common occurrence or am I mistaken? (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
The point is, I know of a grid that has its own viewer, organized in menus and login screens in a way that removes almost all references to SL. Even the support team appears with the project's name instead of "Linden" in various options. So a good level of customization can be achieved, even in a concrete way. Furthermore, this viewer allows users to log in only to the platform it's intended for, which greatly simplifies things for novice users.
In reality, this is the only platform (that uses an engine derived from OS and isn't enabled for Hypergrid) yet it has a functional viewer. The other viewers are just tampered executables with simple programs to change their names and nothing else. They are outdated versions of Firestorm that are far from secure and don't even comply with usage licenses. (For example, AviWorlds has a manipulated viewer that doesn't even install properly! Neverworld is another grid that has an unsettling viewer, but there are other grids that adopt this non-functional and unsafe system. By modifying executables with Notepad++ or other programs and decompilers, you can't release the source code, which violates usage licenses and isn't reassuring at all!).
Daiturn was a viewer dedicated to OS that many avoided because it was too similar to the SL viewer, but the author was actually working on it a lot. Now it has become a viewer for SL, and all the major teams except Firestorm are now leaning towards SL.
Then I'd like to understand, why is payment necessary? Opensimulator originates from open source, just like freeswitch, and they don't require payment, yet they're still developed. Why do these projects ask for money? Couldn't they open up on GitHub or wherever they prefer and start an open project for the development of an "Open Source Voice Service"?
To cut a long story short: because they need someone to code it. They can't do it themselves.
They've got two options. Option one, find someone who's willing to do it for free in their spare time. If this worked, they wouldn't have to raise money now. So it obviously doesn't.
Option two, hire a professional software developer to do it and pay them for it. Sorry to say, but if you absolutely need it done, that's the only way to go. And that costs money.
Now, paying for development will not mean that EchoVoice will become a proprietary, non-free, closed-source, copyrighted binary blob offered as commercial payware. They can just as well pay someone 60 grand to develop something and then make it open-source and publish it under the GPL or the BSD license. It's their decision. And if they pay the developer through donations, EchoVoice won't have to make any money anyway because it is already fully paid for.
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They've got two options. Option one, find someone who's willing to do it for free in their spare time. If this worked, they wouldn't have to raise money now. So it obviously doesn't.
Option two, hire a professional software developer to do it and pay them for it. Sorry to say, but if you absolutely need it done, that's the only way to go. And that costs money.
Now, paying for development will not mean that EchoVoice will become a proprietary, non-free, closed-source, copyrighted binary blob offered as commercial payware. They can just as well pay someone 60 grand to develop something and then make it open-source and publish it under the GPL or the BSD license. It's their decision. And if they pay the developer through donations, EchoVoice won't have to make any money anyway because it is already fully paid for.
I understand, Giove. Your explanation is, as always, very simple, direct, and clear. However, I still maintain that the project should be an initiative of contributors and experienced open-source programmers. Otherwise, wouldn't there be a risk that every update needs to be funded again? Ubit, Fred, and other contributors don't support their families with open-source work; they do it out of passion, and updates, bug fixes, etc., are always present.
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Well, it has to be developed from the ground up. But I'd say that once it's up and running, keeping it maintained should be fairly easy if the code is good. And if they hire an experienced open-source programmer, the code will be good. Better than OpenSim itself by magnitudes, I dare say.
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I understand... what can I say? It seems difficult to go from $800 a year to $60,000. Giove, however, Ruth RC#3 and Roth RC#1 with the updated HUDs and BoM are well-made, and honestly, there's more satisfaction in presenting your grid cleanly. You've been truly valuable throughout all of this. Apologies for going off-topic, but I'll take the opportunity to thank you again.
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I think Jupiter covered that with his Option one - basically it ain't happening, there are no opensource programmers out there willing to work on this project. So the only viable option is to pay for a project.
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Well, there might be open-source programmers willing to work on this, but the professional kind who demands payment. Just because they're paid, doesn't mean their code will be proprietary and closed-source. Novell has paid devs, Red Hat has paid devs, Mozilla has paid devs, Canonical has paid devs...
What you're unlikely to find is a spare-time hobbyist dev willing to develop something like this from scratch for zilch. Maybe if they're passionate about it. But seriously, OpenSim is completely unknown in the open-source community.
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What you're unlikely to find is a spare-time hobbyist dev willing to develop something like this from scratch for zilch. Maybe if they're passionate about it. But seriously, OpenSim is completely unknown in the open-source community.
And if this is the only solution, I'm afraid that with each update, there will be a need for payment. Without contributors who are free from economic ties and are driven by passion, every update will always require an expert. Essentially, we'd be funding a company rather than a project – a company that hires an employee, and for what? To have a voice channel in OpenSim that might not work correctly after the first viewer update. It might be better to try with FreeSWITCH at this point.
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The viewer issue would remain even if FreeSwitch were used, and good luck finding anyone willing to sort that mess out.
There is no reason why, once a voice module were developed that it couldn't be maintained and updated as and when needed. That might well require some payment for the person doing the work, what would be so wrong with that? No one is free from economic ties, we all have bills to pay etc. Even if someone could be found to do it just for the kudos and because they operate solely on passion, they would still only be able to devote some of their leisure time to it, so it would likely a) take a very long time to get to a working stage and b) any updates, bug squashing etc would likely become very delayed, And then what about the documentation?
Passion can't be eaten, and doesn't pay the bills!
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There is no reason why, once a voice module were developed that it couldn't be maintained and updated as and when needed. That might well require some payment for the person doing the work, what would be so wrong with that? No one is free from economic ties, we all have bills to pay etc. Even if someone could be found to do it just for the kudos and because they operate solely on passion, they would still only be able to devote some of their leisure time to it, so it would likely a) take a very long time to get to a working stage and b) any updates, bug squashing etc would likely become very delayed, And then what about the documentation?
Passion can't be eaten, and doesn't pay the bills!
The breakdown of what the $60,000 will achieve is outlined on the EchoVoice project webpage. It seems a lot, but professional coders cost money and the only certain way to get anything done in good time is by paying people properly and them working as per contract. And that $60k is just initial funding, it would require more to fine tune the project.
Payment is necessary because people have rent to pay, food to buy and kids to support. You seem to misunderstand what opensource is about. The app developed by the various projects might be free of cost to you the end user, but they are not free in the sense that people have to be paid, and servers also cost money. The opensource definition of free is more in the sense of liberty rather than free of cost. There are many paid for opensource projects, amonsgt them Red Hat Linux, Mandriva Linux and many other applications. And as far as Opensim is concerned, IBM was quite heavily involved in the early days, and their developers most certainly don't work for nothing!
Finally, sure, a voice module could be developed through voluntary effort, but that begs the question, why hasn't it already been done? The answer to that is largely because Vivox was the go to for most who wanted to use voice because it is 'free' and relatively easy to set up. Part of the reason why Opensim isn't as developed as it could be is because it's not paid for, and thus far any attempt to set up a scheme to put the project on a more planned footing with a roadmap and proper funding has been stymied by the complainers who begrudge coughing up a small amount of cash.
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Payment is necessary because people have rent to pay, food to buy and kids to support. You seem to misunderstand what opensource is about. The app developed by the various projects might be free of cost to you the end user, but they are not free in the sense that people have to be paid, and servers also cost money. The opensource definition of free is more in the sense of liberty rather than free of cost. There are many paid for opensource projects, amonsgt them Red Hat Linux, Mandriva Linux and many other applications. And as far as Opensim is concerned, IBM was quite heavily involved in the early days, and their developers most certainly don't work for nothing!
Finally, sure, a voice module could be developed through voluntary effort, but that begs the question, why hasn't it already been done? The answer to that is largely because Vivox was the go to for most who wanted to use voice because it is 'free' and relatively easy to set up. Part of the reason why Opensim isn't as developed as it could be is because it's not paid for, and thus far any attempt to set up a scheme to put the project on a more planned footing with a roadmap and proper funding has been stymied by the complainers who begrudge coughing up a small amount of cash.
Although $60,000 seems impossible….it really is not. This is based on 52 weeks.
10 corp sponsors @ $25/week = $13,000
20 sponsors @ $10/week = $10,400
40. Patrons. @. $5/week = $10,400
300 Supporters @ $2/week= $31,200
Total. $60,000 +
This, and many other needs in open sim, are totally possible if people would simply work together.
The greatest danger to Opensim is the common aversion to pay for anything.
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10 corp sponsors @ $25/week = $13,000
20 sponsors @ $10/week = $10,400
40. Patrons. @. $5/week = $10,400
300 Supporters @ $2/week= $31,200
Total. $60,000 +
This, and many other needs in open sim, are totally possible if people would simply work together.
The greatest danger to Opensim is the common aversion to pay for anything.
Thank you Safine :) If only more people could engage the bit of grey matter between their ears and look at issues the way you have here. I have in the past written similar cost breakdowns to illustrate the power of numbers. Your kind of thinking is the kind of thinking behind how we fund our healthcare system in the UK, so many people all contributing a small relatively amount.
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Ok, but why do they want these MONEY? Everything could be done opensource, allowing users and opensimulator grid operators to host their own voice servers on their machines, just like with freeswitch. All of this could be achieved through opensource. Why do they want these money? And then what do they do? Do they become a company and sell their project while keeping it free for the OS community? This isn't the right path. There's another way. The truth is that we lack developers who are uninterested in money but still accept the challenge. The ones who are interested ask for MONEY, and that's not okay. Your response doesn't explain to me why they're asking for money. I understand your concern, but you're only suggesting how to support them, not how to guide them towards a different and OPEN SOURCE path like OPENSIMULATOR (which would also create a parallel and perhaps lasting project that progresses alongside this), and most importantly, it doesn't explain to me why they're asking for this money. :)
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Will you please learn: opensource does not necessarily mean it's free of cost to develop. All projects have at least server costs, and some projects pay their coders. Some opensource applications or operating systems charge for the software, and all opensource means in any real sense is that the code is open for everyone to read, modify, change, make sure there are no nasties hiding in it etc.
EchoVoice is an opensource project, but in order to actually get the project delivered before we all shuttle of our mortal coils professional coders need to be engaged, contracted to do the work, and PAID.There are also other costs, such as running servers etc.
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EchoVoice is an opensource project, but in order to actually get the project delivered before we all shuttle of our mortal coils professional coders need to be engaged, contracted to do the work, and PAID.There are also other costs, such as running servers etc.
Sure, open source means everything you've mentioned. However, it largely depends on the usage license with which the software is initiated. Anyway, I don't see it being useful to pay for a startup that will eventually become a competitor to Vivox. I find a project in the style of FreeSWITCH more useful – open source – where, just like with OpenSimulator, anyone can download the code and reshape it to fit their needs. This would attract a large number of free and interested programmers, much like what happens with many Unix or GNU/Linux-based software.
The server wouldn't be centralized, but each user would have their own, independent from others. So, each grid would have its own voice server. This doesn't incur development costs because I can manage the repositories from my PC, make changes from my PC, and test the software on my PC without requiring sums like $60,000 – and this would be multiplied by the many contributing users. If someone is needed to do this, so be it.
If FreeSWITCH were simpler, it would be ideal to pursue that project. I tried to run it on a Windows server, but with very limited results. Adapting a voice service for viewers isn't simple, but in my opinion, the best solution remains starting with a solid open-source software under the GPL license, integrating the necessary modules (and if needed, moving towards LGPL). This way, everyone can host their own voice server on their machine, decentralized from the rest. Instead of giving money to a project that centralizes voice servers, it creates a completely different type of project and supports a startup that, no matter how open their code might be, aims to have control over the users of its services. OpenSimulator is not like this. If I had to choose, I'd prefer to pay for services from a company like Vivox; at least I know it's reputable and already present in various gaming services, including professional tournaments and Second Life.
However, fundamentally, all GNU/Linux systems are free – they're all cost-free. What you pay for is consultancy and support in the pro versions. GPL licenses are genuinely respected there :)
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The server wouldn't be centralized, but each user would have their own, independent from others. So, each grid would have its own voice server. This doesn't incur development costs because I can manage the repositories from my PC, make changes from my PC, and test the software on my PC without requiring sums like $60,000 – and this would be multiplied by the many contributing users. If someone is needed to do this, so be it.
If FreeSWITCH were simpler, it would be ideal to pursue that project. I tried to run it on a Windows server, but with very limited results. Adapting a voice service for viewers isn't simple, but in my opinion, the best solution remains starting with a solid open-source software under the GPL license, integrating the necessary modules (and if needed, moving towards LGPL). This way, everyone can host their own voice server on their machine, decentralized from the rest. Instead of giving money to a project that centralizes voice servers, it creates a completely different type of project and supports a startup that, no matter how open their code might be, aims to have control over the users of its services. OpenSimulator is not like this. If I had to choose, I'd prefer to pay for services from a company like Vivox; at least I know it's reputable and already present in various gaming services, including professional tournaments and Second Life.
However, fundamentally, all GNU/Linux systems are free – they're all cost-free. What you pay for is consultancy and support in the pro versions. GPL licenses are genuinely respected there :)
The server wouldn't be centralised with EchoVoice or a project based on that as Mumble is a voice server that is run independently as a service by each grid wanting that particular voice solution.
You could set up a voice project tomorrow, and you might, if you were very lucky, attract some interest, but finding people who are ready and willing to code for free will be the difficult bit. Most GNU/Linux distros have a handful of coders who do the work. Only the distros that are backed by major corporate players (IBM, Red Hat, Mandriva and a few others) have significant numbers of coders working on the code as they can afford to pay them.
And whilst there are projects that are, as you say, driven by passion, most of those projects are also pretty up front in letting people know that financial contributions help to allow them to do more work in the project they are passionate about and less working for an employer on stuff they do just to make enough to pay the bills. Maybe if we, the users were a little bit more passionate about making a small donation every time we download and install some of their software they'd be able to give up the day job and concentrate on doing what they are passionate about, and delivering us super and well updated new versions of the software we love? By not contributing when we are able we're basically expecting the developers to pay for the software we use. It might be free to us, but it costs them a considerable amount. Most of the projects run purely on passion have just one person behind them, usually doing a mountain of work and struggling to keep up. Opensim has just one developer when not so very long ago there was a team of developers. There are various reasons for that, some of them social, but I would think that the need to make a living and have a life outside of the day job have a lot to do with the scarcity of people developing independent modules for Opensim.
The healthcare most people in the UK receive is free (at point of need) but that doesn't mean it's without cost. We all pay for it from our taxation, and it's a really good deal, and everyone has comprehensive health cover.
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You could set up a voice project tomorrow, and you might, if you were very lucky, attract some interest, but finding people who are ready and willing to code for free will be the difficult bit. Most GNU/Linux distros have a handful of coders who do the work. Only the distros that are backed by major corporate players (IBM, Red Hat, Mandriva and a few others) have significant numbers of coders working on the code as they can afford to pay them.
And whilst there are projects that are, as you say, driven by passion, most of those projects are also pretty up front in letting people know that financial contributions help to allow them to do more work in the project they are passionate about and less working for an employer on stuff they do just to make enough to pay the bills. Maybe if we, the users were a little bit more passionate about making a small donation every time we download and install some of their software they'd be able to give up the day job and concentrate on doing what they are passionate about, and delivering us super and well updated new versions of the software we love? By not contributing when we are able we're basically expecting the developers to pay for the software we use. It might be free to us, but it costs them a considerable amount. Most of the projects run purely on passion have just one person behind them, usually doing a mountain of work and struggling to keep up. Opensim has just one developer when not so very long ago there was a team of developers. There are various reasons for that, some of them social, but I would think that the need to make a living and have a life outside of the day job have a lot to do with the scarcity of people developing independent modules for Opensim.
The healthcare most people in the UK receive is free (at point of need) but that doesn't mean it's without cost. We all pay for it from our taxation, and it's a really good deal, and everyone has comprehensive health cover.
Great comments and I agree! In theory, this would be awesome to be done through open source.
And my comments were merely meant as an example to show how easy it is to raise “impossible “ sums of money, should that be needed.
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And my comments were merely meant as an example to show how easy it is to raise “impossible “ sums of money, should that be needed.