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OpenSimWorld is the directory of 3D Virtual Worlds based on OpenSimulator and connected through the HyperGrid. Learn More
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Now that the new PBR-enabled Firestorm is out...
https://opensimworld.com/post/110361
...in case you want to experiment with PBR, and you need materials:
ambientCG offers a whole bunch of PBR materials. Not only are they free-of-charge, but they're licensed under Creative Commons CC0 which is practically the public domain.
https://ambientcg.com/list?type=Material,Atlas,Decal
https://opensimworld.com/post/110361
...in case you want to experiment with PBR, and you need materials:
ambientCG offers a whole bunch of PBR materials. Not only are they free-of-charge, but they're licensed under Creative Commons CC0 which is practically the public domain.
https://ambientcg.com/list?type=Material,Atlas,Decal
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In new version of firestorm, is there a way to turn pbr off? I have found that when i updated my teleport board and visitors board do not show the regions list or visitors list.
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I have seen that too... adjust the surface transparency on the face.. this solved the issue for me.
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Right click into Edit.
Texture Tab.
Select surface (top left check box option).
Click / highlighting the face/surface of the prim/mesh.
Adjust the transparency for desired effect.
*I hope this helps.
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Texture Tab.
Select surface (top left check box option).
Click / highlighting the face/surface of the prim/mesh.
Adjust the transparency for desired effect.
*I hope this helps.
It gets stranger and stranger.
I'm at Virtual Beach now, using Firestorm 7.1.9. I can see the visitors list with no problems. Nice black and blue now, not so washed out anymore. Also, I've just updated the regions list which I can see listing regions as expected.
So I can't even reproduce your issue. And I don't think I'm one of the lucky few with a perfect Firestorm 7 system.
I mean, I could try again with the Cool VL Viewer and see what happens, but that wouldn't lead to anything useful.
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I'm at Virtual Beach now, using Firestorm 7.1.9. I can see the visitors list with no problems. Nice black and blue now, not so washed out anymore. Also, I've just updated the regions list which I can see listing regions as expected.
So I can't even reproduce your issue. And I don't think I'm one of the lucky few with a perfect Firestorm 7 system.
I mean, I could try again with the Cool VL Viewer and see what happens, but that wouldn't lead to anything useful.
PBR itself only happens if there's PBR content. And no, you can't switch the rendering engine back to how Firestorm 6 behaved.
As for the boards, this does sound strange. Normally, the behaviour of such boards shouldn't change. But if you've got two boards with probably fully independently developed scripts underneath, and they both act up the same way, it sounds like we'll have quite a number of scripts to adapt and then an even larger number of scripted boards to update.
I mean, Firestorm 7 has only just been rolled out a few days ago. It hasn't been tested against everything in OpenSim yet. So we might be in for a few more surprises, and the Firestorm team might be in for a few more bug reports. But I hope this can be sorted out in-world.
I think I should travel around and check a few boards out there.
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As for the boards, this does sound strange. Normally, the behaviour of such boards shouldn't change. But if you've got two boards with probably fully independently developed scripts underneath, and they both act up the same way, it sounds like we'll have quite a number of scripts to adapt and then an even larger number of scripted boards to update.
I mean, Firestorm 7 has only just been rolled out a few days ago. It hasn't been tested against everything in OpenSim yet. So we might be in for a few more surprises, and the Firestorm team might be in for a few more bug reports. But I hope this can be sorted out in-world.
I think I should travel around and check a few boards out there.
PSA: This is MY thread.
It's up to ME who gets to decide which comments remain, and which have to go.
Satyr wants us to moderate OSW ourselves, and so I've done. I have enforced the rules of this website which it actually does have, surprise, surprise: https://opensimworld.com/page/terms
I've cleaned this thread up, and I've prevented the worst offenders from ever spewing their toxic waste over my comment threads again.
Come whining about your "freeze peach" all you want. You aren't entitled to be heard by absolutely everyone absolutely everywhere.
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It's up to ME who gets to decide which comments remain, and which have to go.
Satyr wants us to moderate OSW ourselves, and so I've done. I have enforced the rules of this website which it actually does have, surprise, surprise: https://opensimworld.com/page/terms
I've cleaned this thread up, and I've prevented the worst offenders from ever spewing their toxic waste over my comment threads again.
Come whining about your "freeze peach" all you want. You aren't entitled to be heard by absolutely everyone absolutely everywhere.
Great thing, Jupiter. :-) As I told you, I have removed my own off-topic posts myself. I hope now it stays factual and close to the topic. :-)
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I tried the Linux version of FS PBR and it would not render any graphics for me. I am guessing this means I need to upgrade my server and I am not ready to do that, Now that I have everything working to my satisfaction, I want to enjoy the fruits of my labor, not go through the hassle of upgrading everything AGAIN!
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I've tested Firestorm 7 on my tower with dedicated graphics on grids running various OpenSim versions from OSgrid's 0.9.3.0 to ArribaSim FreAki which is partly still 0.8.x.x at its core. It worked everywhere.
On the other hand, on my laptop with on-board graphics, Firestorm 7 had a hard time loading an avatar. The debug console claimed it failed to download certain surfaces (Error 503), and the avatar stayed cloudy until I removed all attachments and replaced all textures with plain white. The surroundings worked. That was on 0.9.2.0, and my tower works just fine on the same sim on the same grid with the same avatar.
Both machines run Debian testing.
So it could be a client-side issue, but even that is still mysterious to me. If you could tell me a sim I could visit for a test, I'd do so with the tower and see what happens.
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On the other hand, on my laptop with on-board graphics, Firestorm 7 had a hard time loading an avatar. The debug console claimed it failed to download certain surfaces (Error 503), and the avatar stayed cloudy until I removed all attachments and replaced all textures with plain white. The surroundings worked. That was on 0.9.2.0, and my tower works just fine on the same sim on the same grid with the same avatar.
Both machines run Debian testing.
So it could be a client-side issue, but even that is still mysterious to me. If you could tell me a sim I could visit for a test, I'd do so with the tower and see what happens.
not to mention the region youre currently on must also support PBR otherwise the viewers PBR feature is very useless and wont really work and im sure still most of the regions out there dont have that feature :)
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I think this is VERY important to understand. PBR is much different than the ability to use specular maps in advanced lighting, which OS already has. Adding specular and normal maps to your objects is great (and looks great!) but PBR is a whole lot more than that. As Alexa points out, you have to be on a server that has the capability, none of which I have seen in OS yet. (Not saying they are not there, I just have not seen them.) Along with Norma and Specular maps which we can currently use, PBR lighting also requires an Ambient Occlusion or ORM texture layer and a Rougness layer. Then you (I think?) need the shade model and engine built into your sever so that it can actually "see" all this stuff.
Two important details: Used correctly (as in once all the bugs are worked out) PBR should not really tax your current system much more than the current lighting model. In some instances, it should even be an improvement, Pbr is also goingto be an "all in" or all out" deal. If I am using actual PBR textures on everything, and you are looking at those objects with a non PBR viewer, all you will like see are gray textures.
I have to wonder, with so few people in OS even using Advances Lighting textures, will there be a real want for PBR lighting in OS? It is something I am used to, so I like it, but I am fairly new here. Does everyone think there will be a real desire to implement this in OS? Should be exciting.
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Two important details: Used correctly (as in once all the bugs are worked out) PBR should not really tax your current system much more than the current lighting model. In some instances, it should even be an improvement, Pbr is also goingto be an "all in" or all out" deal. If I am using actual PBR textures on everything, and you are looking at those objects with a non PBR viewer, all you will like see are gray textures.
I have to wonder, with so few people in OS even using Advances Lighting textures, will there be a real want for PBR lighting in OS? It is something I am used to, so I like it, but I am fairly new here. Does everyone think there will be a real desire to implement this in OS? Should be exciting.
OpenSim 0.9.3.0 supports PBR. OSgrid's official sims, the Plazas, are all PBR-capable as has been proven. I've seen a picture made by Hicks Adder showing a working mirror at one of the Sandbox Plazas, and I suspect that beat-up sci-fi helmet on display at Lbsa Plaza to use PBR.
As far as textures go, both SL and OpenSim have a fallback: Every surface can have both a set of PBR textures and a set of traditional non-PBR/Blinn-Phong textures. The latter are used in non-PBR viewers, the former are used in PBR viewers. You only get grey surfaces if the traditional textures are missing.
In addition, OpenSim also has fallback textures for the ground. Second Life doesn't; it doesn't seem to need them. After all, two versions from now, the non-PBR versions of both the official viewer and Firestorm will no longer be allowed. OpenSim doesn't have this rule, and there are still people using Firestorm as old as 6.0.2 although it doesn't support BoM, and BoM has no viable fallback.
As for the demand for PBR, it will come. Just like BoM came. For now, there won't be much happening, what with how few places support it, how rough around the edges the first PBR Firestorm is, and how few people actually know what BoM is. It's similar to the spring of 2020. All places that ran on vanilla OpenSim had at least basic BoM support, but Firestorm 6.3.9 was so buggy that everyone stuck with Firestorm 6.0.2 with no BoM support. The only BoM content available were a few basically unknown Ruth 2.0 or RuthToo forks with basic BoM and, released in May, Roth2 v2 with scripted BoM which nobody would ever had heard of either if I hadn't peddled it.
Then, in July, came Athena 6 which most OpenSim users take for the first BoM body in OpenSim, in August came Adonis 4, both with very basic and actually incomplete BoM, and in autumn came Firestorm 6.4.13 which fixed Firestorm 6.3.9's show-stopper bug. Still, nobody really knew what BoM was, and even only few people stopped using skin appliers and actually started using BoM. But that teal "Free Bakes on Mesh" label became synonymous for "the newest hottest shit you can possibly put on your avatar". Still today, hardly anyone really fleshes BoM out, also because nobody dares to rip new layer clothes from SL because they'll be perceived as ugly, out-dated crap.
For the near future, I can see two things happen. One, at least one new Firestorm version irons out the rough edges of 7.1.9. (Sorry, no way back to having forward rendering without ALM.) Two, someone starts ripping shit-tons of PBR content from SL and offering it in their freebie store with a brand-new, custom PBR logo on it. Either that'll happen at iPleasure or Darkhearts, boosting either even more, or that'll happen on an entirely new sim which has the chance of becoming more popular than iPleasure and Darkhearts.
Either way, while still nobody will know what it actually means, PBR will replace EvoX as the label for the new hotness, just like EvoX replaced BoM. Also, nobody will really flesh PBR out because, just like now, nobody will be bothered to install light sources anywhere on their sims.
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As far as textures go, both SL and OpenSim have a fallback: Every surface can have both a set of PBR textures and a set of traditional non-PBR/Blinn-Phong textures. The latter are used in non-PBR viewers, the former are used in PBR viewers. You only get grey surfaces if the traditional textures are missing.
In addition, OpenSim also has fallback textures for the ground. Second Life doesn't; it doesn't seem to need them. After all, two versions from now, the non-PBR versions of both the official viewer and Firestorm will no longer be allowed. OpenSim doesn't have this rule, and there are still people using Firestorm as old as 6.0.2 although it doesn't support BoM, and BoM has no viable fallback.
As for the demand for PBR, it will come. Just like BoM came. For now, there won't be much happening, what with how few places support it, how rough around the edges the first PBR Firestorm is, and how few people actually know what BoM is. It's similar to the spring of 2020. All places that ran on vanilla OpenSim had at least basic BoM support, but Firestorm 6.3.9 was so buggy that everyone stuck with Firestorm 6.0.2 with no BoM support. The only BoM content available were a few basically unknown Ruth 2.0 or RuthToo forks with basic BoM and, released in May, Roth2 v2 with scripted BoM which nobody would ever had heard of either if I hadn't peddled it.
Then, in July, came Athena 6 which most OpenSim users take for the first BoM body in OpenSim, in August came Adonis 4, both with very basic and actually incomplete BoM, and in autumn came Firestorm 6.4.13 which fixed Firestorm 6.3.9's show-stopper bug. Still, nobody really knew what BoM was, and even only few people stopped using skin appliers and actually started using BoM. But that teal "Free Bakes on Mesh" label became synonymous for "the newest hottest shit you can possibly put on your avatar". Still today, hardly anyone really fleshes BoM out, also because nobody dares to rip new layer clothes from SL because they'll be perceived as ugly, out-dated crap.
For the near future, I can see two things happen. One, at least one new Firestorm version irons out the rough edges of 7.1.9. (Sorry, no way back to having forward rendering without ALM.) Two, someone starts ripping shit-tons of PBR content from SL and offering it in their freebie store with a brand-new, custom PBR logo on it. Either that'll happen at iPleasure or Darkhearts, boosting either even more, or that'll happen on an entirely new sim which has the chance of becoming more popular than iPleasure and Darkhearts.
Either way, while still nobody will know what it actually means, PBR will replace EvoX as the label for the new hotness, just like EvoX replaced BoM. Also, nobody will really flesh PBR out because, just like now, nobody will be bothered to install light sources anywhere on their sims.
Thank you so much! If there was a "love" option I would have selected that instead of "like". That is the most concise and informed assessment is have seen from the OS side of PBR. I also think your forecast about how it will reach here is spot on. As I said in another post. It will not happen tomorrow, nor should it, but it will happen. I for one think that is a good thing. There is no reason on earth that something as goofy as 3DXChat should have better graphics AND better framerates than OS. One question I have for you is about "Exposure". If I am running a grid on 0.9.3.0 and I log in with a PBR capable viewer, isn't everything going to look different because of the color setting, regardless of if I have PBR textures anywhere or not? Thanks again for the info and for putting it in language even I can understand =)
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Everything looks different in a PBR-enabled viewer, even if you should manage to visit a grid that still runs a long-dead fork that's largely on the same level as 0.8.0.0 or so. You'll always have a higher contrast, more vivid colours and shiny surfaces actually reflecting something.
The only server-side change is the support for PBR textures in content. Everything else from actually rendering PBR textures to lighting to colour handling (high dynamic range!) is done viewer-side.
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The only server-side change is the support for PBR textures in content. Everything else from actually rendering PBR textures to lighting to colour handling (high dynamic range!) is done viewer-side.
Thank you again, I am learning a bit with each reply! That is also in line with what I am hearing from a few in SL. In a PBR viewer, everything has that high contrast and vivid colors, so that is just going to be the world we live in for a bit. Ca you tell me what textures the new viewer supports/needs? Specual and Normal maps I am sure of obviously. And likely and Ambient Occlusion map? Is there more than those three texture layers?
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To my mind the problem with PBR is the fact that so many of the discussions I've seen on it say that non-PBR content is impacted by the PBR viewers. The most common comment is that with a PBR viewer the colors of non-PBR content are much more 'bold'. Either way ... non-PBR content and PBR content don't mix well, by all accounts. I don't know if that's LL's implementation of PBR, or if it's inevitable, but as someone who came to OS to preserve the things I cherish when SL succumbs to mismanagement ... my region will always be pre-PBR and as such I won't be updating viewers ever.
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While I can't agree that adapting PBR is in any way "mismanagement "as much as it is just updating to an industry standard to maintain functionality, It is my understanding also that PBR would affect how you everything, be it PBR texture or not. You are changing how light works. As I understand it, PBR is like getting a new Sun. It is going to react with everything. Your Windlight will effect the colors of everything differently. Your water will effect the colors of everything differently. That is called "Exposure"
https://medium.com/@shinsoj/the-diary-of-ta-lighting-expos...
Is should be noted that this is not something that LL just threw out with no notice. LL has been moving towards this and saying so since it began using specular maps almost six years ago. They are trying hard to get on par with Unreal Engine and Unity, which are the basic standards now
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https://medium.com/@shinsoj/the-diary-of-ta-lighting-expos...
Is should be noted that this is not something that LL just threw out with no notice. LL has been moving towards this and saying so since it began using specular maps almost six years ago. They are trying hard to get on par with Unreal Engine and Unity, which are the basic standards now
I wasn't actually referring to PBR as mismanagement. I was talking about all the other stuff ... redirecting most of their dev talent and blowing a fortune on Sansar, that sort of thing. :)
Beyond that ... one of the purposes of my region (still a WIP and not open the public after all these years lol) is the preservation of wonderful things I found in SL. Builds and outfits which achieved near-miracles given the limitations of prims, sculpties and system bodies ... many of which have been lost to time. I am not adverse to moving forward by any means, but I will not embrace anything with detracts from the wonders that I've gone to great lengths to preserve. And that's important (to me at least) because a lot of what I've preserved is from creators long gone from SL. I still, to this day, remember the sense of wonder and glory I felt when I first arrived in SL ... and awe at what some creators achieved. I guess my region is a testament to that.
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Beyond that ... one of the purposes of my region (still a WIP and not open the public after all these years lol) is the preservation of wonderful things I found in SL. Builds and outfits which achieved near-miracles given the limitations of prims, sculpties and system bodies ... many of which have been lost to time. I am not adverse to moving forward by any means, but I will not embrace anything with detracts from the wonders that I've gone to great lengths to preserve. And that's important (to me at least) because a lot of what I've preserved is from creators long gone from SL. I still, to this day, remember the sense of wonder and glory I felt when I first arrived in SL ... and awe at what some creators achieved. I guess my region is a testament to that.
Windlight has been dead and gone since OpenSim 0.9.2.2 and Firestorm 6.6.3, replaced with EEP. You can still get boxes containing the old Windlight presets converted to EEP, but that isn't Windlight proper. So in order to preserve Windlight, you'll have to stick to OpenSim 0.9.2.1 at best, maybe manually backport security patches, and Firestorm 6.5.6.
The main difference between PBR content and pre-PBR content is/will be that the colours of PBR content are more subdued. Pre-PBR content has almost cartoonish colours to equal pre-PBR viewers' low-contrast rendering of everything. However, I can see non-PBR content in SL being upgraded for PBR viewers with more subdued colours even if it doesn't get PBR textures.
Other differences will be more glaring. I mean, a lot of pre-PBR content was made to look good on toasters with absolute minimum graphics settings. Plenty of it was ripped and taken to OpenSim. You can see it everywhere: baked-on shadows, baked-on highlights, baked-on reflections/shininess and not even the faintest trace of Blinn-Phong. Putting such content next to PBR content on a PBR-enabled sim will look inconsistent, but then again, so is putting it next to content with Blinn-Phong already now. Think old prim kitchen appliances next to Arcadia's Espresso Machine.
And look around typical sims here in OpenSim. Many sim builders have no problems plopping down ripped SL mesh buildings with baked-on everything right next to simple prim buildings that look like 2007 because they're even set to full bright, thus circumventing the shaders.
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The main difference between PBR content and pre-PBR content is/will be that the colours of PBR content are more subdued. Pre-PBR content has almost cartoonish colours to equal pre-PBR viewers' low-contrast rendering of everything. However, I can see non-PBR content in SL being upgraded for PBR viewers with more subdued colours even if it doesn't get PBR textures.
Other differences will be more glaring. I mean, a lot of pre-PBR content was made to look good on toasters with absolute minimum graphics settings. Plenty of it was ripped and taken to OpenSim. You can see it everywhere: baked-on shadows, baked-on highlights, baked-on reflections/shininess and not even the faintest trace of Blinn-Phong. Putting such content next to PBR content on a PBR-enabled sim will look inconsistent, but then again, so is putting it next to content with Blinn-Phong already now. Think old prim kitchen appliances next to Arcadia's Espresso Machine.
And look around typical sims here in OpenSim. Many sim builders have no problems plopping down ripped SL mesh buildings with baked-on everything right next to simple prim buildings that look like 2007 because they're even set to full bright, thus circumventing the shaders.
or just ask doctor google for "PBR materials" to find some more pages like https://freepbr.com etc. pp.
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On my HP laptop with Win11 it crashes immediately, but it runs on my Mac Mini with M2 chip and Sunoma.
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In all of my years of experience, the first release or latest updates of anything Firestorm is usually garbage and broken. So I will always wait until they get 2 updates ahead. They are consistent on this, so it's not a one time thing.
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yes, I agree. I was just giving a quick overview of my experience of the PBR viewer. I spent 2 hours playing with it today and it was very disappointing. I won't be ditching the current non PBR version any time soon.
I hope the developers have plenty of turd polish, they are going to need several swimming pools full of the stuff.
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I hope the developers have plenty of turd polish, they are going to need several swimming pools full of the stuff.
I'm having a disastrous time with the PBR viewer.
The option to upload a material is greyed out, the edit window will not allow me to pick a texture to apply in the PBR section. it looks like the PBR tab is greyed out, If i click the Blinn-Phong tab then I can't go back to the PBR tab without relogging.
I followed a tutorial to make a mirror and it didn't reflect anything unless my camera was really close and at a side on angle. Ticking the reflection probe option enables the probe, but it wont stay ticked to let me adjust the options.
The FPS is half what I normally get and everything generally looks objectively worse.
Shadows make the water flicker with black moire pattern while the camera moves.
I would love to play with the viewer and see what its capable of, but its just a broken mess at the moment.
Not sure how many of these issues are open sim related, but as it is right now I can't use the PBR viewer as its just a mess.
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The option to upload a material is greyed out, the edit window will not allow me to pick a texture to apply in the PBR section. it looks like the PBR tab is greyed out, If i click the Blinn-Phong tab then I can't go back to the PBR tab without relogging.
I followed a tutorial to make a mirror and it didn't reflect anything unless my camera was really close and at a side on angle. Ticking the reflection probe option enables the probe, but it wont stay ticked to let me adjust the options.
The FPS is half what I normally get and everything generally looks objectively worse.
Shadows make the water flicker with black moire pattern while the camera moves.
I would love to play with the viewer and see what its capable of, but its just a broken mess at the moment.
Not sure how many of these issues are open sim related, but as it is right now I can't use the PBR viewer as its just a mess.
I am just curious. Are you in a sim/server that is running the new lighting engine? If not, that is why a lot of those options are greyed out and why they wont work. It sounds like your water is dealing with "exposure". With PBR, EVERYTHING is going to effect how everything else looks. Your windlight, the color of your water, and your reflectivity, will all influence how everything look. It is called Exposure.
And to be fair, the fIrestorm creators have made it clear all over their website that this new viewer WILL be buggy and WILL have problems. This is a warts and all release and they are not hiding that fact.
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And to be fair, the fIrestorm creators have made it clear all over their website that this new viewer WILL be buggy and WILL have problems. This is a warts and all release and they are not hiding that fact.