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Let's talk about child avatar criteria for a moment.
This is Juno, my little in-world sister. Little as in one year younger. What she's wearing is something she isn't too unlikely to wear these days. It's still quite chilly outside after all.
Those of you who know her won't doubt that she's a grown-up woman. But there's a whole lot about her that may qualify her as an underage avatar. I'm not even joking.
Yes, on the one hand, protection against paedos and their unlawful ageplay is a necessity; see also Safine's most recent post: https://opensimworld.com/post/108176
On the other hand, paedos are trying to circumvent countermeasures. Add to this the most recent drama about Lindens being directly involved in sexual ageplay in Second Life.
As a result, sim owners ramp up their countermeasures. This goes well beyond more and more sims redefining the Adult rating as "G-rated, but no child avatars allowed". It's likely that the signs that an avatar is underage will be "upgraded", too.
And the wide-spread anti-underage paranoia has made them absolutely ridiculous quite a while ago already. There's so much that could qualify Juno here as a kid.
Let me sum it up.
First of all, her height. The most blatant sign and the only one that triggers auto-bans. She's "only" 1.74m which is 5'8½". Many childgates still run on default settings which ban everyone under 1.80m. And I guess their number will increase as more and more sim owners decide that 1.60m or 1.70m doesn't cut it anymore. I'm pretty sure Juno has fallen victim to childgates twice already.
The other criteria are purely visual.
Her shape is somewhat close to realistic. Her head is about ⅛ of her body height which is actually still a bit small for a real-life woman. By OpenSim standards, however, her head is rather large in comparison with her body height. This reeks of a kid shape.
Next, look at her skin tone. In early April in real life, this is a fairly typical skin tone. In OpenSim, however, grown-ups are basically required to have a deep tan. Even most goths have darker skins than Juno. The only avatars with such light skins are child avatars. Well, and Juno, but if you don't know her, you're easy to take her for a kid because her skin is so light.
Now, look at her face. Look at her lips. No pumped-up boat lips. This is what real-life lips look like, but in OpenSim, the only avatars with such thin lips are either male avatars or child avatars. Since she doesn't have a perma-stubble or a full beard, she can't be the former.
Anything else you notice about her face? Right, no make-up whatsoever. Practically all other adult female avatars out there at least wear lipstick. She doesn't even wear that. Well, sometimes she does, but not here, not now. Makes her look like a kid in comparison.
Speaking of make-up, look at her hands. No nail polish. AFAIK, not a single one of the popular female mesh bodies lets you go without nail polish. Especially Athena doesn't. So basically, if a female avatar doesn't wear nail polish, it's either a classic, mesh-less layer-and-prim avatar from, like, 2007 or a child avatar. And Juno doesn't look like she doesn't have a mesh body.
And her hair? Yes, that's a bob. In real life, it was a rather popular hairstyle in the 1960s. In OpenSim, hair significantly shorter than shoulder length is probably the second-most child-like girl hairstyle right after twin pigtails. As an adult woman, she should be expected to have a long lush mane. I've never seen a single female avatar with Paige hair. Black could be a saving throw because little girls are usually blond, but not necessarily.
Let's continue with her clothes.
She's covering a whole lot of skin, more than almost all other female avatars. Granted, most little girl avatars show a whole lot more skin, too. Just look at those super-short skirts that seem to be a requirement for underage girl avatars. But grown-up female avatars are basically expected to do the same. Thus, covering up makes her look less adult.
So does the rather loose fit of her clothes. Adult female avatars may be allowed to wear long denim jeans, but only of the skin-tight kind. But while Juno's jeans are labelled slim fit, they look rather like something a little boy could wear.
Her pullover gives the impression that she doesn't have a waist. You know what other avatars don't have much of a waist? Good thing she doesn't have a petite body because there's no petite variant of her body, otherwise she'd look almost flat in this pullover. Also, that shade of teal might be questionable at least. It'd be worse if that pullover was pink, but she doesn't have it in pink.
Finally, her footwear. She's wearing flat shoes. Adult female avatars are expected to always walk around on 6" heels. In fact, she's even wearing sneakers. Flat sneakers. Even tip-toe sneakers are questionable, but unless worn by a manly man, they're little girl material.
And if that wasn't enough, she's wearing them with white socks. The only hosiery adult female avatars may wear in OpenSim is nylon stockings, Zettai Ryouiki-style, showing skin on the thighs above. Socks are pretty much exclusively worn by children, so what does that make Juno?
I bet that if Juno wore this to events in places whose owners don't know her, chances are she'd be banned on the spot for being a kid. Good thing her usual party styles are of the kind that causes her to be accused of dressing like a grandma instead.
This is Juno, my little in-world sister. Little as in one year younger. What she's wearing is something she isn't too unlikely to wear these days. It's still quite chilly outside after all.
Those of you who know her won't doubt that she's a grown-up woman. But there's a whole lot about her that may qualify her as an underage avatar. I'm not even joking.
Yes, on the one hand, protection against paedos and their unlawful ageplay is a necessity; see also Safine's most recent post: https://opensimworld.com/post/108176
On the other hand, paedos are trying to circumvent countermeasures. Add to this the most recent drama about Lindens being directly involved in sexual ageplay in Second Life.
As a result, sim owners ramp up their countermeasures. This goes well beyond more and more sims redefining the Adult rating as "G-rated, but no child avatars allowed". It's likely that the signs that an avatar is underage will be "upgraded", too.
And the wide-spread anti-underage paranoia has made them absolutely ridiculous quite a while ago already. There's so much that could qualify Juno here as a kid.
Let me sum it up.
First of all, her height. The most blatant sign and the only one that triggers auto-bans. She's "only" 1.74m which is 5'8½". Many childgates still run on default settings which ban everyone under 1.80m. And I guess their number will increase as more and more sim owners decide that 1.60m or 1.70m doesn't cut it anymore. I'm pretty sure Juno has fallen victim to childgates twice already.
The other criteria are purely visual.
Her shape is somewhat close to realistic. Her head is about ⅛ of her body height which is actually still a bit small for a real-life woman. By OpenSim standards, however, her head is rather large in comparison with her body height. This reeks of a kid shape.
Next, look at her skin tone. In early April in real life, this is a fairly typical skin tone. In OpenSim, however, grown-ups are basically required to have a deep tan. Even most goths have darker skins than Juno. The only avatars with such light skins are child avatars. Well, and Juno, but if you don't know her, you're easy to take her for a kid because her skin is so light.
Now, look at her face. Look at her lips. No pumped-up boat lips. This is what real-life lips look like, but in OpenSim, the only avatars with such thin lips are either male avatars or child avatars. Since she doesn't have a perma-stubble or a full beard, she can't be the former.
Anything else you notice about her face? Right, no make-up whatsoever. Practically all other adult female avatars out there at least wear lipstick. She doesn't even wear that. Well, sometimes she does, but not here, not now. Makes her look like a kid in comparison.
Speaking of make-up, look at her hands. No nail polish. AFAIK, not a single one of the popular female mesh bodies lets you go without nail polish. Especially Athena doesn't. So basically, if a female avatar doesn't wear nail polish, it's either a classic, mesh-less layer-and-prim avatar from, like, 2007 or a child avatar. And Juno doesn't look like she doesn't have a mesh body.
And her hair? Yes, that's a bob. In real life, it was a rather popular hairstyle in the 1960s. In OpenSim, hair significantly shorter than shoulder length is probably the second-most child-like girl hairstyle right after twin pigtails. As an adult woman, she should be expected to have a long lush mane. I've never seen a single female avatar with Paige hair. Black could be a saving throw because little girls are usually blond, but not necessarily.
Let's continue with her clothes.
She's covering a whole lot of skin, more than almost all other female avatars. Granted, most little girl avatars show a whole lot more skin, too. Just look at those super-short skirts that seem to be a requirement for underage girl avatars. But grown-up female avatars are basically expected to do the same. Thus, covering up makes her look less adult.
So does the rather loose fit of her clothes. Adult female avatars may be allowed to wear long denim jeans, but only of the skin-tight kind. But while Juno's jeans are labelled slim fit, they look rather like something a little boy could wear.
Her pullover gives the impression that she doesn't have a waist. You know what other avatars don't have much of a waist? Good thing she doesn't have a petite body because there's no petite variant of her body, otherwise she'd look almost flat in this pullover. Also, that shade of teal might be questionable at least. It'd be worse if that pullover was pink, but she doesn't have it in pink.
Finally, her footwear. She's wearing flat shoes. Adult female avatars are expected to always walk around on 6" heels. In fact, she's even wearing sneakers. Flat sneakers. Even tip-toe sneakers are questionable, but unless worn by a manly man, they're little girl material.
And if that wasn't enough, she's wearing them with white socks. The only hosiery adult female avatars may wear in OpenSim is nylon stockings, Zettai Ryouiki-style, showing skin on the thighs above. Socks are pretty much exclusively worn by children, so what does that make Juno?
I bet that if Juno wore this to events in places whose owners don't know her, chances are she'd be banned on the spot for being a kid. Good thing her usual party styles are of the kind that causes her to be accused of dressing like a grandma instead.
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While this isn't on-topic with my original post: I'm okay with shops that offer stuff for perfectly clean children's outfits.
But whenever I see a kids' shop that offers fully nude skins and scripted boy dicks, it seriously makes me wonder.
Is that shop owner so clueless about what's in the boxes in spite of what's shown on them? I mean, I know that next to no shopkeep in the Hypergrid curates their stuff, and many slap boxes with broken permissions or even empty boxes against their shop walls, but seriously.
Has that shop owner only hung up that stuff for completion's sake, hoping in all seriousness that nobody will buy it?
Is that shop owner naïve enough to believe that THEIR customers will ALL only acquire that stuff to play nudist family?
Is that shop owner so out of the loop that they're completely unaware of the existence of paedo ageplayers both generally and in OpenSim specifically, so they can't imagine these items could possibly be acquired for sexual purposes?
Does that shop owner know but (pretend to) not care who acquires that stuff and what for?
Is that shop owner secretly (or not so secretly) a proud paedo supplier? Or paedo themselves?
Or does that shop owner secretly have a logger script running to identify avatars who come and pick up that stuff, and the shop is nothing but a paedo honeypot after all?
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But whenever I see a kids' shop that offers fully nude skins and scripted boy dicks, it seriously makes me wonder.
Is that shop owner so clueless about what's in the boxes in spite of what's shown on them? I mean, I know that next to no shopkeep in the Hypergrid curates their stuff, and many slap boxes with broken permissions or even empty boxes against their shop walls, but seriously.
Has that shop owner only hung up that stuff for completion's sake, hoping in all seriousness that nobody will buy it?
Is that shop owner naïve enough to believe that THEIR customers will ALL only acquire that stuff to play nudist family?
Is that shop owner so out of the loop that they're completely unaware of the existence of paedo ageplayers both generally and in OpenSim specifically, so they can't imagine these items could possibly be acquired for sexual purposes?
Does that shop owner know but (pretend to) not care who acquires that stuff and what for?
Is that shop owner secretly (or not so secretly) a proud paedo supplier? Or paedo themselves?
Or does that shop owner secretly have a logger script running to identify avatars who come and pick up that stuff, and the shop is nothing but a paedo honeypot after all?
This ties into my other post recently on @Safinemahoe2's post.
You are quite correct in that the 'norm' in SL and OSG tends to be somewhat hypersexualised. For males and females, although it's less noticeable for males. Although I've been to plenty of grids where glamor is rated higher than erotic.
But here's the thing ... why, if that's not what someone is into, do they want to go to a grid where that IS the 'style'?
Or to put it another way ... one grid I know of hosts formal, disco, and fetish dances. People go to the dances that have appeal for them, so the people who are only into fetish don't go to the disco or formal dances. I'm sure if someone turned up to the formal dance in their raunchiest fetish attire, they'd be asked to change or leave. And, in my opinion, that would be not only the host's right to do so, it would actually be entirely appropriate to do so.
Why do people persist in trying to go to places which have a specific purpose or theme, and not fit into that purpose or theme? It's like going to an AFK sex sim in SL, and complaining that there are no Greedy Tables.
You will note I asked questions above. And I actually mean "Please explain, because I don't get it" ... I'm not asking questions as a debating tactic.
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You are quite correct in that the 'norm' in SL and OSG tends to be somewhat hypersexualised. For males and females, although it's less noticeable for males. Although I've been to plenty of grids where glamor is rated higher than erotic.
But here's the thing ... why, if that's not what someone is into, do they want to go to a grid where that IS the 'style'?
Or to put it another way ... one grid I know of hosts formal, disco, and fetish dances. People go to the dances that have appeal for them, so the people who are only into fetish don't go to the disco or formal dances. I'm sure if someone turned up to the formal dance in their raunchiest fetish attire, they'd be asked to change or leave. And, in my opinion, that would be not only the host's right to do so, it would actually be entirely appropriate to do so.
Why do people persist in trying to go to places which have a specific purpose or theme, and not fit into that purpose or theme? It's like going to an AFK sex sim in SL, and complaining that there are no Greedy Tables.
You will note I asked questions above. And I actually mean "Please explain, because I don't get it" ... I'm not asking questions as a debating tactic.
"Why do people persist in trying to go to places which have a specific purpose or theme, and not fit into that purpose or theme?"
Well, first of all, there are those who don't care for dress codes. Like, at all. They dress like they always dress, and they seem to completely ignore their surroundings. Same reason why they insist in walking around snow-covered Christmas sims in skimpy micro-minidresses and 6" platform sandals with 12" spike heels or on subtropical beaches clad in black biker leather from head to toe like a one-percenter. Anything to not reduce their sexiness or badassitude.
Or it's simply their style which is the more likely, the more unusual it is.
I think some intentionally break dress codes to demonstrate how utterly they despise role-playing in any shape or form.
I also know someone who is too much of an anarchist to let anyone tell him what to wear. That is, even he puts on a tuxedo when appropriate. And he doesn't Hypergrid often anyway.
Then there are those who don't know that there is a dress code in the first place. Some go to OSW and look up which sims are busy without checking a) what that sim is and b) what's happening there. Others don't know the OSW website and believe the OSW beacons are nothing more than nifty Hypergrid teleporters. They seek out the busiest sim and teleport there to meet people. But the beacon doesn't tell them anything about on-going events either, not even about the sims except for whether they're Adult-rated.
At events that encourage or require nudity, there are those who a) are too prudish or too badass to strip down and b) couldn't possibly imagine for the life of them that anyone else actually would. At least not until they arrive there. After five minutes of waiting in vain for the clothes on the female avatars to rez, or after 30 seconds when the dicks on the male avatars have rezzed, they often nope out again anyway, so they aren't much of a problem.
Not being able to dress in a certain way because there's no fitting clothing of that kind for your body doesn't play such a big role. If I can't dress appropriately for an occasion, and I usually can't, then I don't go there, plain and simple.
I even refused to go to beaches for quite a while unless they were nude beaches. The reason: I have a Roth2 v2. There is absolutely no mesh beachwear that fits on this body. And layer swim shorts look ridiculous on me without a bulge. In fact, I had absolutely nothing I could credibly wear on a beach. I only started to go to non-nude beaches after I'd managed to re-texture some sculpty bulges for some layer swim shorts. Before then, I always sent Juno because layer swimwear looks better on her.
I think this only becomes an issue if you attend an event although you neither want to nor really can, but you have to because you were invited by someone who insists in your presence. For example, if someone absolutely wants you to attend the opening party of their fetish sim, dress code is latex, full stop, but you've got a Ruth 2.0 for which no latex clothes exist, and you refuse to wear stolen Athena clothes which may not even fit properly anyway. Then you can choose between coming as you are and breaking the dress code, coming naked which you think is sexy enough and still breaking the dress code or letting your sim owner friend down by not coming at all.
Now, this goes for single sims and mostly for specific events on those sims.
An entire grid with a specific dress code has to be monothematic and therefore tiny with no third-party sims whatsoever. I don't know any such grid from the top of my head. Even Littlefield isn't all about BDSM and doesn't require fetish outfits everywhere.
Okay, now let's imagine a hypothetic medium-small grid that's all about glitz and glam and showing off. Where everyone has a Lamborghini Veneno, of which only three were made IRL, as a daily driver. Two dozen sims dedicated to this in various ways. It's actually grid-wide dress code.
But there's one sim on that same grid where someone offers self-made, therefore legal, freebies. Let's suppose they're actually quite useful clothes for legal, made-in-OpenSim-for-OpenSim mesh bodies of a kind and in a quality that you can't find anywhere else, also because they're no-transfer exclusives. In other words, exactly what Juno and I need.
That sim is in that grid because the sim owner is friends with the grid owner, the previous grid which hosted that sim had gone down, the sim needed a new home ASAP, and the grid owner owed the sim owner one.
However, none of us can dress in the style required for the grid. There are no legal clothes for that theme that could possibly be worn on Roth2 v2, there are no legal clothes for that theme that could possibly be worn on Ruth2 v4, and both of us refuse to switch to stolen bodies with stolen heads, stolen skins, stolen hair, stolen clothes and stolen shoes just for that sim.
The only chance we'd have if we don't want to pass on that content, and we don't, is to sneak into the grid when there's nobody else online and hope that our mesh bodies and our clothes are too obscure for the grid server to have them blacklisted for not being glamourous enough.
Or a variant on this: Imagine a grid whose owner has openly stated that Athena Petite is an underage body, full stop, and therefore banned on their entire grid, full stop, because allegedly, everyone who uses this body is a paedo.
Now imagine you've got an avatar based on Athena Petite because you find Athena's boobs too unnaturally big, and you wanted your avatar to be more realistic and believable. You've actually managed to make your avatar look like a realistic, fully grown-up real-life woman. No doubt that your avatar is definitely not underage. Maybe even to the point that people say you dress like a grandma.
Okay, now imagine you absolutely have to go to that grid. There's a sim that offers exclusive content which you absolutely need, or your best friend is going to get married on that very grid, or your favourite weekly event has moved into this very grid, or whatever.
What'd you do? Pass on that content/your best friend's wedding because your presence is not tolerated on the grid because your avatar is allegedly a kid because it's an Athena Petite? Go anyway, just to let yourself be perma-banned? Pester your friend to get married elsewhere?
Throw your principles and the general look of your avatar overboard, get yourself a regular Athena and increase your boobs six-fold just to survive a trip to that grid?
If that isn't relatable enough, we could try another required dress code for a whole grid: business attire. For female avatars, this means: Blazer jacket. Pencil skirt. No bare legs, nylon is an absolute requirement. Medium heels, no flats, no high heels. Spoiler: That's actually doable with an Athena, but very difficult. In fact, it's easier with a Ruth2 v4 and 100% legal clothing, especially if you know how to make your own alpha masks (or you could ask, and you may get what you need).
Again, you absolutely need to go to that grid. What'd you do? Break the dress code, stay out or go insane trying to piece the required look together that you may think won't even look good on you?
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Well, first of all, there are those who don't care for dress codes. Like, at all. They dress like they always dress, and they seem to completely ignore their surroundings. Same reason why they insist in walking around snow-covered Christmas sims in skimpy micro-minidresses and 6" platform sandals with 12" spike heels or on subtropical beaches clad in black biker leather from head to toe like a one-percenter. Anything to not reduce their sexiness or badassitude.
Or it's simply their style which is the more likely, the more unusual it is.
I think some intentionally break dress codes to demonstrate how utterly they despise role-playing in any shape or form.
I also know someone who is too much of an anarchist to let anyone tell him what to wear. That is, even he puts on a tuxedo when appropriate. And he doesn't Hypergrid often anyway.
Then there are those who don't know that there is a dress code in the first place. Some go to OSW and look up which sims are busy without checking a) what that sim is and b) what's happening there. Others don't know the OSW website and believe the OSW beacons are nothing more than nifty Hypergrid teleporters. They seek out the busiest sim and teleport there to meet people. But the beacon doesn't tell them anything about on-going events either, not even about the sims except for whether they're Adult-rated.
At events that encourage or require nudity, there are those who a) are too prudish or too badass to strip down and b) couldn't possibly imagine for the life of them that anyone else actually would. At least not until they arrive there. After five minutes of waiting in vain for the clothes on the female avatars to rez, or after 30 seconds when the dicks on the male avatars have rezzed, they often nope out again anyway, so they aren't much of a problem.
Not being able to dress in a certain way because there's no fitting clothing of that kind for your body doesn't play such a big role. If I can't dress appropriately for an occasion, and I usually can't, then I don't go there, plain and simple.
I even refused to go to beaches for quite a while unless they were nude beaches. The reason: I have a Roth2 v2. There is absolutely no mesh beachwear that fits on this body. And layer swim shorts look ridiculous on me without a bulge. In fact, I had absolutely nothing I could credibly wear on a beach. I only started to go to non-nude beaches after I'd managed to re-texture some sculpty bulges for some layer swim shorts. Before then, I always sent Juno because layer swimwear looks better on her.
I think this only becomes an issue if you attend an event although you neither want to nor really can, but you have to because you were invited by someone who insists in your presence. For example, if someone absolutely wants you to attend the opening party of their fetish sim, dress code is latex, full stop, but you've got a Ruth 2.0 for which no latex clothes exist, and you refuse to wear stolen Athena clothes which may not even fit properly anyway. Then you can choose between coming as you are and breaking the dress code, coming naked which you think is sexy enough and still breaking the dress code or letting your sim owner friend down by not coming at all.
Now, this goes for single sims and mostly for specific events on those sims.
An entire grid with a specific dress code has to be monothematic and therefore tiny with no third-party sims whatsoever. I don't know any such grid from the top of my head. Even Littlefield isn't all about BDSM and doesn't require fetish outfits everywhere.
Okay, now let's imagine a hypothetic medium-small grid that's all about glitz and glam and showing off. Where everyone has a Lamborghini Veneno, of which only three were made IRL, as a daily driver. Two dozen sims dedicated to this in various ways. It's actually grid-wide dress code.
But there's one sim on that same grid where someone offers self-made, therefore legal, freebies. Let's suppose they're actually quite useful clothes for legal, made-in-OpenSim-for-OpenSim mesh bodies of a kind and in a quality that you can't find anywhere else, also because they're no-transfer exclusives. In other words, exactly what Juno and I need.
That sim is in that grid because the sim owner is friends with the grid owner, the previous grid which hosted that sim had gone down, the sim needed a new home ASAP, and the grid owner owed the sim owner one.
However, none of us can dress in the style required for the grid. There are no legal clothes for that theme that could possibly be worn on Roth2 v2, there are no legal clothes for that theme that could possibly be worn on Ruth2 v4, and both of us refuse to switch to stolen bodies with stolen heads, stolen skins, stolen hair, stolen clothes and stolen shoes just for that sim.
The only chance we'd have if we don't want to pass on that content, and we don't, is to sneak into the grid when there's nobody else online and hope that our mesh bodies and our clothes are too obscure for the grid server to have them blacklisted for not being glamourous enough.
Or a variant on this: Imagine a grid whose owner has openly stated that Athena Petite is an underage body, full stop, and therefore banned on their entire grid, full stop, because allegedly, everyone who uses this body is a paedo.
Now imagine you've got an avatar based on Athena Petite because you find Athena's boobs too unnaturally big, and you wanted your avatar to be more realistic and believable. You've actually managed to make your avatar look like a realistic, fully grown-up real-life woman. No doubt that your avatar is definitely not underage. Maybe even to the point that people say you dress like a grandma.
Okay, now imagine you absolutely have to go to that grid. There's a sim that offers exclusive content which you absolutely need, or your best friend is going to get married on that very grid, or your favourite weekly event has moved into this very grid, or whatever.
What'd you do? Pass on that content/your best friend's wedding because your presence is not tolerated on the grid because your avatar is allegedly a kid because it's an Athena Petite? Go anyway, just to let yourself be perma-banned? Pester your friend to get married elsewhere?
Throw your principles and the general look of your avatar overboard, get yourself a regular Athena and increase your boobs six-fold just to survive a trip to that grid?
If that isn't relatable enough, we could try another required dress code for a whole grid: business attire. For female avatars, this means: Blazer jacket. Pencil skirt. No bare legs, nylon is an absolute requirement. Medium heels, no flats, no high heels. Spoiler: That's actually doable with an Athena, but very difficult. In fact, it's easier with a Ruth2 v4 and 100% legal clothing, especially if you know how to make your own alpha masks (or you could ask, and you may get what you need).
Again, you absolutely need to go to that grid. What'd you do? Break the dress code, stay out or go insane trying to piece the required look together that you may think won't even look good on you?
Sorry Jupiter, you're throwing up some pretty unlikely hypotheticals.
I wrote a long response but it boiled down to a principal I hold dear: My Home, My Rules.
That's how I operate in RL, in SL, and in OS.
In my RL home, in my SL mainland plot, and in my region in OS ... the rules are what I say they are. Obviously within the constraints of the society I am embedded in. So I have to comply with RL Law, SL TOS, and the TOS that my grid owners required that I agree to.
The same, I imagine, applies to your RL home.
If, for instance, you had a rule for entering your home which I believed I could not comply with ... I would either (a) not enter it or (b) ask you to wave that rule. If you refused to wave the rule I would leave.
Because it would not matter WHY I felt I couldn't comply with that rule ... perhaps it might conflict with my religion or my principals, but it's YOUR home and YOU get to set the rules. The minute we insist on overriding that it stops being your home.
If I have a rule in my region (still locked down after 6 years of construction ... when I build, I build BIG :) that says "Do not do X" then you either obey the rule, convince me to wave it in your case, or you get out. I don't have to rationalise or justify it ... because it's MY home.
That basically addresses everything in your reply.
Now I'll address some finer points: In SL I use the HG body. Nobody would suggest that body is infantile. But, for a bet, I made a barely-pubescent avatar using that body. And I found sufficient free items (because I wasn't going to spent $L's to win a bet lol) to dress that avatar as a child. It was a hideous outfit with a lot of alphas to hide the clipping, but it was a viable outfit all the same So banning a specific body which is ostensibly an adult body is silly. It all depends on the shape.
Add the fact that I have an alt on my home OS grid who has an avatar which (with deformation) is less than 3 feet tall ... he should only be about 6 to 7 inches, but you can only do so much after all, and I'm not in favor of automatic measures to classify any avatar as unacceptable.
BUT ... if I hypergridded to a grid which automatically kicked me out I'd just move on, because at the end of the day it really is up to the grid/region owner how he or she wants to run his/her own grid.
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I wrote a long response but it boiled down to a principal I hold dear: My Home, My Rules.
That's how I operate in RL, in SL, and in OS.
In my RL home, in my SL mainland plot, and in my region in OS ... the rules are what I say they are. Obviously within the constraints of the society I am embedded in. So I have to comply with RL Law, SL TOS, and the TOS that my grid owners required that I agree to.
The same, I imagine, applies to your RL home.
If, for instance, you had a rule for entering your home which I believed I could not comply with ... I would either (a) not enter it or (b) ask you to wave that rule. If you refused to wave the rule I would leave.
Because it would not matter WHY I felt I couldn't comply with that rule ... perhaps it might conflict with my religion or my principals, but it's YOUR home and YOU get to set the rules. The minute we insist on overriding that it stops being your home.
If I have a rule in my region (still locked down after 6 years of construction ... when I build, I build BIG :) that says "Do not do X" then you either obey the rule, convince me to wave it in your case, or you get out. I don't have to rationalise or justify it ... because it's MY home.
That basically addresses everything in your reply.
Now I'll address some finer points: In SL I use the HG body. Nobody would suggest that body is infantile. But, for a bet, I made a barely-pubescent avatar using that body. And I found sufficient free items (because I wasn't going to spent $L's to win a bet lol) to dress that avatar as a child. It was a hideous outfit with a lot of alphas to hide the clipping, but it was a viable outfit all the same So banning a specific body which is ostensibly an adult body is silly. It all depends on the shape.
Add the fact that I have an alt on my home OS grid who has an avatar which (with deformation) is less than 3 feet tall ... he should only be about 6 to 7 inches, but you can only do so much after all, and I'm not in favor of automatic measures to classify any avatar as unacceptable.
BUT ... if I hypergridded to a grid which automatically kicked me out I'd just move on, because at the end of the day it really is up to the grid/region owner how he or she wants to run his/her own grid.
You asked for explanations. You explicitly stated that your questions are not rhetorical.
I gave you explanations.
But apparently, I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear.
Not everything in my comment is hypothetical. This, for example, is reality:
"Well, first of all, there are those who don't care for dress codes. Like, at all. They dress like they always dress, and they seem to completely ignore their surroundings. Same reason why they insist in walking around snow-covered Christmas sims in skimpy micro-minidresses and 6" platform sandals with 12" spike heels or on subtropical beaches clad in black biker leather from head to toe like a one-percenter. Anything to not reduce their sexiness or badassitude.
Or it's simply their style which is the more likely, the more unusual it is."
I could give you names and UUIDs from my home grid, but I won't do that in public. Granted, they mostly hardly ever teleport or teleported, but I myself personally witnessed one of them being kicked and banned from Stark for giving the impression of being a child avatar although she was actually anything but.
This guy...
"I also know someone who is too much of an anarchist to let anyone tell him what to wear. That is, even he puts on a tuxedo when appropriate. And he doesn't Hypergrid often anyway."
...is reality, too. Again, I could give you a name and a UUID, but again, not in public.
"Then there are those who don't know that there is a dress code in the first place. Some go to OSW and look up which sims are busy without checking a) what that sim is and b) what's happening there. Others don't know the OSW website and believe the OSW beacons are nothing more than nifty Hypergrid teleporters. They seek out the busiest sim and teleport there to meet people. But the beacon doesn't tell them anything about on-going events either, not even about the sims except for whether they're Adult-rated."
This was literally me during my first few weeks in OpenSim. And not only me as you can tell whenever you're at a motto party or at a heavily themed event in a heavily themed location, and in the middle of an event, people teleport in in what has to be their typical casual outfits. They just went where there are a lot of avatars to meet.
And in this particular case, these people won't know anything about any rules being in place until they're being told WHILE THEY'RE ALREADY THERE. The OSW beacon doesn't tell you anything about a sim, only the name, Adult rating or not and how many avatars are there, that's all. It does NOT tell you about what kind of sim it is, what's its theme, what rules are in place. It could be a medieval hard roleplay sim, it could be an Old West hard roleplay sim, it could be a BTB Gor hard roleplay sim, but if you don't know OpenSimWorld-the-website, you wouldn't know that before you actually go there. And if you do learn about the rules, you do so while having broken them already. Unless someone kicks you first.
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I gave you explanations.
But apparently, I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear.
Not everything in my comment is hypothetical. This, for example, is reality:
"Well, first of all, there are those who don't care for dress codes. Like, at all. They dress like they always dress, and they seem to completely ignore their surroundings. Same reason why they insist in walking around snow-covered Christmas sims in skimpy micro-minidresses and 6" platform sandals with 12" spike heels or on subtropical beaches clad in black biker leather from head to toe like a one-percenter. Anything to not reduce their sexiness or badassitude.
Or it's simply their style which is the more likely, the more unusual it is."
I could give you names and UUIDs from my home grid, but I won't do that in public. Granted, they mostly hardly ever teleport or teleported, but I myself personally witnessed one of them being kicked and banned from Stark for giving the impression of being a child avatar although she was actually anything but.
This guy...
"I also know someone who is too much of an anarchist to let anyone tell him what to wear. That is, even he puts on a tuxedo when appropriate. And he doesn't Hypergrid often anyway."
...is reality, too. Again, I could give you a name and a UUID, but again, not in public.
"Then there are those who don't know that there is a dress code in the first place. Some go to OSW and look up which sims are busy without checking a) what that sim is and b) what's happening there. Others don't know the OSW website and believe the OSW beacons are nothing more than nifty Hypergrid teleporters. They seek out the busiest sim and teleport there to meet people. But the beacon doesn't tell them anything about on-going events either, not even about the sims except for whether they're Adult-rated."
This was literally me during my first few weeks in OpenSim. And not only me as you can tell whenever you're at a motto party or at a heavily themed event in a heavily themed location, and in the middle of an event, people teleport in in what has to be their typical casual outfits. They just went where there are a lot of avatars to meet.
And in this particular case, these people won't know anything about any rules being in place until they're being told WHILE THEY'RE ALREADY THERE. The OSW beacon doesn't tell you anything about a sim, only the name, Adult rating or not and how many avatars are there, that's all. It does NOT tell you about what kind of sim it is, what's its theme, what rules are in place. It could be a medieval hard roleplay sim, it could be an Old West hard roleplay sim, it could be a BTB Gor hard roleplay sim, but if you don't know OpenSimWorld-the-website, you wouldn't know that before you actually go there. And if you do learn about the rules, you do so while having broken them already. Unless someone kicks you first.
You didn't answer the question I asked.
You talk about not knowing the rules, and that's fair enough. When you arrive, you should be informed of the rules one way or another. A sign at the landing zone. A notecard. Or someone telling you. Then, a reasonable grid and owner would give you a chance to correct whatever the problem is. My landing zone (if we ever get the region finished lol) is in a cave. There will be a big sign explaining the rules and you basically have to walk through it to get out of the cave. There will also be a notecard giver which covers both English and Spanish, those being the two languages used on the grid wherein I make my home. I think that's a reasonable approach.
For example ... I recently tried to go to a shop in SL. You know the deal, you find something on the MP and follow the "see this item in second life". I landed in the middle of something that was NOT a shop. I didn't even look around, I just went to my web browser ... got the creators name, and searched for it in case she had a new location for her shop. While I was doing that I got a very polite DM "I'm sorry, you may not have realised that you're in a gay club and women aren't permitted." I immediately hit home, and then apologised and explained how I came to be there and why I hadn't realised I was in a gay club. That's reasonable. I try to always assume the best motive when someone screws up and give them a chance to correct it, as did the gay guy at that club.
What I'm addressing, and I believe it's implicit in my post, is why you would WANT to go to a grid/region where the owner has (somehow) communicated the rules and in his/her opinion you don't comply with them?
Frankly if I were your little sister, and some said "CHILD AVATAR!!!" and started frothing at the mouth ... I wouldn't be able to get out of there fast enough.
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You talk about not knowing the rules, and that's fair enough. When you arrive, you should be informed of the rules one way or another. A sign at the landing zone. A notecard. Or someone telling you. Then, a reasonable grid and owner would give you a chance to correct whatever the problem is. My landing zone (if we ever get the region finished lol) is in a cave. There will be a big sign explaining the rules and you basically have to walk through it to get out of the cave. There will also be a notecard giver which covers both English and Spanish, those being the two languages used on the grid wherein I make my home. I think that's a reasonable approach.
For example ... I recently tried to go to a shop in SL. You know the deal, you find something on the MP and follow the "see this item in second life". I landed in the middle of something that was NOT a shop. I didn't even look around, I just went to my web browser ... got the creators name, and searched for it in case she had a new location for her shop. While I was doing that I got a very polite DM "I'm sorry, you may not have realised that you're in a gay club and women aren't permitted." I immediately hit home, and then apologised and explained how I came to be there and why I hadn't realised I was in a gay club. That's reasonable. I try to always assume the best motive when someone screws up and give them a chance to correct it, as did the gay guy at that club.
What I'm addressing, and I believe it's implicit in my post, is why you would WANT to go to a grid/region where the owner has (somehow) communicated the rules and in his/her opinion you don't comply with them?
Frankly if I were your little sister, and some said "CHILD AVATAR!!!" and started frothing at the mouth ... I wouldn't be able to get out of there fast enough.
"What I'm addressing, and I believe it's implicit in my post, is why you would WANT to go to a grid/region where the owner has (somehow) communicated the rules and in his/her opinion you don't comply with them?"
Again: One reason is because you always dress the same, plus, you ABSOLUTELY DESPISE dress codes with a BURNING PASSION, and thus, you deliberately, intentionally break them by going as you are.
Again: Reality. Could give you a name and a UUID.
Not to mention those who think that other people's rules generally don't apply to them, who think they can overrule anyone anywhere, or who try to weasel themselves around any rule out there by finding and exploiting loopholes or, if necessary, making them up out of thin air. Bonus points if they call you a fascist for enforcing your rules by banning them.
Can't give you a UUID because I refuse to go where I could find it, but I could tell you three names for the same guy.
A variant I haven't mentioned yet: The dress code is only communicated in the sim owner's native language because the entire target audience of the sim speaks the sim owner's native language. But that language is German or Italian or Brazilian Portuguese. In fact, the sim owner only speaks and understands that one language.
Sure, if you have common sense, you go find an online translator that can also identify the language if you can't.
But some treat anything communicated to them in a language other than their native tongue as not communicated to them at all. So they keep coming back because they simply don't KNOW that this foreign gibberish they were exposed to was rules, much less that and how they're breaking these rules right now. And they keep coming back until the sim owner either bans them or communicates the rules to them in their language, and I don't mean Googlish because some ignore that, too.
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Again: One reason is because you always dress the same, plus, you ABSOLUTELY DESPISE dress codes with a BURNING PASSION, and thus, you deliberately, intentionally break them by going as you are.
Again: Reality. Could give you a name and a UUID.
Not to mention those who think that other people's rules generally don't apply to them, who think they can overrule anyone anywhere, or who try to weasel themselves around any rule out there by finding and exploiting loopholes or, if necessary, making them up out of thin air. Bonus points if they call you a fascist for enforcing your rules by banning them.
Can't give you a UUID because I refuse to go where I could find it, but I could tell you three names for the same guy.
A variant I haven't mentioned yet: The dress code is only communicated in the sim owner's native language because the entire target audience of the sim speaks the sim owner's native language. But that language is German or Italian or Brazilian Portuguese. In fact, the sim owner only speaks and understands that one language.
Sure, if you have common sense, you go find an online translator that can also identify the language if you can't.
But some treat anything communicated to them in a language other than their native tongue as not communicated to them at all. So they keep coming back because they simply don't KNOW that this foreign gibberish they were exposed to was rules, much less that and how they're breaking these rules right now. And they keep coming back until the sim owner either bans them or communicates the rules to them in their language, and I don't mean Googlish because some ignore that, too.
Ok - I see where we're not communicating too effectively.
Yes - I agree that there are people who, for whatever reason, feel that they are entitled to break the rules. Said people deserve a kick and a ban once the rules are explained and they don't comply.
A person who doesn't make an effort to understand the rules is history as well. The grid owner is under no onus to jump through hoops to get the rules across. I have left grids because I simply couldn't make sense of the rules I was offered.
But I'm coming at it from a different point of view. What I'm trying to get at is why Juno would WANT to be on a grid where the owner was a small minded dweeb who immediately started frothing at the mouth because he sees what he thinks is a child avatar.
Sure ... your post lays out "this is not a child so stop overreacting", and I see the value in trying to communicate that with people. But having done so, many people aren't going to get it, at which point why not just write them (and their grids) off?
It would be different if it were an RL connected issue. So a grid which prohibited avatars based on their skin color would be an issue that required persistent addressing, because that connects to RL racism.
But this is a purely VR issue because except in a vanishingly small number of cases it's unlikely that anyone in RL is going to be confused with a prepubescent child.
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Yes - I agree that there are people who, for whatever reason, feel that they are entitled to break the rules. Said people deserve a kick and a ban once the rules are explained and they don't comply.
A person who doesn't make an effort to understand the rules is history as well. The grid owner is under no onus to jump through hoops to get the rules across. I have left grids because I simply couldn't make sense of the rules I was offered.
But I'm coming at it from a different point of view. What I'm trying to get at is why Juno would WANT to be on a grid where the owner was a small minded dweeb who immediately started frothing at the mouth because he sees what he thinks is a child avatar.
Sure ... your post lays out "this is not a child so stop overreacting", and I see the value in trying to communicate that with people. But having done so, many people aren't going to get it, at which point why not just write them (and their grids) off?
It would be different if it were an RL connected issue. So a grid which prohibited avatars based on their skin color would be an issue that required persistent addressing, because that connects to RL racism.
But this is a purely VR issue because except in a vanishingly small number of cases it's unlikely that anyone in RL is going to be confused with a prepubescent child.
"But I'm coming at it from a different point of view. What I'm trying to get at is why Juno would WANT to be on a grid where the owner was a small minded dweeb who immediately started frothing at the mouth because he sees what he thinks is a child avatar."
For one, I wasn't originally talking about ENTIRE GRIDS while you were ONLY ever talking about entire grids.
It isn't only grid owners who make rules and kick and ban avatars. In fact, grid owners rather have the decency to publish their rules somewhere.
I was talking about SIMS whose owners make their own rules just for that sim in addition to the grid rules.
First of all, rules specific to one sim or a few sims under the same owner have much more of a tendency to only exist in the head of the owner and never be communicated to anyone, much less written down and published somewhere that's publicly accessible. Avatars are being kicked and banned for breaking rules they don't even know exist all the time.
In fact, they actually may or may not be definite rules.
The sim owner may actually have a catalogue of definite underage avatar attributes in their head and check avatars for these attributes. Too short, check, kid, kick & ban. Petite, check, kid, kick & ban. Too light skin, check, kid, kick & ban. Twin pigtails, check, kid, kick & ban.
But: The sim owner may just as well only kick and ban avatars on the ground of FEELING like that's an underage avatar. The criteria for that may be the exact same as above and as in my original post. But they aren't defined and listed individually in the sim owner's mind. It's just that too short size and/or too light skin and/or too small boobs and/or too bright clothes and/or not sexy enough clothes make an avatar FEEL underage.
You can actually often read that on signs at sim landings: "We may kick and ban any avatar which we consider looking underage." But "looking underage" is not defined anywhere. There is NO list of defined criteria for what makes an avatar look underage.
If there was such a list, don't you think they'd rattle it down on the very same sign to make clear what consitutes an underage avatar and what doesn't? Much like the OSgrid plazas explicitly rattle down all the things they don't tolerate on avatars, one by one, on big in-world signs?
But they don't. Because it isn't a catalogue of defined criteria. It's gut feelings. Based on largely the same criteria as above, but never defined, not judged by the mind checking off a list, but judged by the guts that feel like it's a child avatar.
So instead, the sign may read something like, "It's up to us to decide what makes an avatar look underage. No questioning our decision."
If go you PRESSURE the grid owners to spit out what they think makes an avatar look underage, they MAY list up stuff like that above. After spending a while thinking about what they feel makes an avatar look underage, based on what avatars looked like that they've kicked and banned in the recent past. But not before then.
Grid owners are more harmless for another reason: They can't patrol and police the whole grid with 359 sims all the time. Even if they do have as vague as draconian rules, which grid owners don't have on the same level as sim owners, it's fairly easy to sneak past them.
A sim owner who has only got one sim, maybe even only one party sim that's only busy for a few hours per day, one or a few days per week, can easily police the whole sim and over 90% of the activity on that sim. Because it's only that one sim.
And avatars are much more often being kicked and banned by sim owners from party sims during parties and from RP sims during RP sessions than from freebie sims or landscape sims.
Besides, it is not specifically about Juno. It has never been specifically about Juno.
But Juno is a great example because she tends to have so much on her that may constitute an underage avatar. Either because it's on some sim owner's defined checklist of underage avatar attributes. Or because it triggers some sim owner's gut feelings that this avatar kinda sorta looks underage.
It's about Juno as much as it's about ALL avatars that have enough on them that Juno has, too. They're all just the same in danger of being wrongly kicked and banned for allegedly being underage. Not just Juno. In fact, many are even MORE in danger than Juno because Juno at least has a sizable pair of boobs which Athena Petite avatars don't have.
Why I've used Juno then? Well, I had the choice. Either use Juno as an example. Or comb the Hypergrid and search for bits and pieces to put together another female avatar with only the specific purpose of making one picture and showing demonstrating alleged child avatar criteria. Enormous effort to build something that's readily available already.
It was easier and more convenient to use Juno. Simple as that.
And it's more relatable if it's an avatar that actually walks around out there, goes shopping, goes partying, than if it's an avatar that was cobbled together for this one picture, never seen before and never to be seen again.
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For one, I wasn't originally talking about ENTIRE GRIDS while you were ONLY ever talking about entire grids.
It isn't only grid owners who make rules and kick and ban avatars. In fact, grid owners rather have the decency to publish their rules somewhere.
I was talking about SIMS whose owners make their own rules just for that sim in addition to the grid rules.
First of all, rules specific to one sim or a few sims under the same owner have much more of a tendency to only exist in the head of the owner and never be communicated to anyone, much less written down and published somewhere that's publicly accessible. Avatars are being kicked and banned for breaking rules they don't even know exist all the time.
In fact, they actually may or may not be definite rules.
The sim owner may actually have a catalogue of definite underage avatar attributes in their head and check avatars for these attributes. Too short, check, kid, kick & ban. Petite, check, kid, kick & ban. Too light skin, check, kid, kick & ban. Twin pigtails, check, kid, kick & ban.
But: The sim owner may just as well only kick and ban avatars on the ground of FEELING like that's an underage avatar. The criteria for that may be the exact same as above and as in my original post. But they aren't defined and listed individually in the sim owner's mind. It's just that too short size and/or too light skin and/or too small boobs and/or too bright clothes and/or not sexy enough clothes make an avatar FEEL underage.
You can actually often read that on signs at sim landings: "We may kick and ban any avatar which we consider looking underage." But "looking underage" is not defined anywhere. There is NO list of defined criteria for what makes an avatar look underage.
If there was such a list, don't you think they'd rattle it down on the very same sign to make clear what consitutes an underage avatar and what doesn't? Much like the OSgrid plazas explicitly rattle down all the things they don't tolerate on avatars, one by one, on big in-world signs?
But they don't. Because it isn't a catalogue of defined criteria. It's gut feelings. Based on largely the same criteria as above, but never defined, not judged by the mind checking off a list, but judged by the guts that feel like it's a child avatar.
So instead, the sign may read something like, "It's up to us to decide what makes an avatar look underage. No questioning our decision."
If go you PRESSURE the grid owners to spit out what they think makes an avatar look underage, they MAY list up stuff like that above. After spending a while thinking about what they feel makes an avatar look underage, based on what avatars looked like that they've kicked and banned in the recent past. But not before then.
Grid owners are more harmless for another reason: They can't patrol and police the whole grid with 359 sims all the time. Even if they do have as vague as draconian rules, which grid owners don't have on the same level as sim owners, it's fairly easy to sneak past them.
A sim owner who has only got one sim, maybe even only one party sim that's only busy for a few hours per day, one or a few days per week, can easily police the whole sim and over 90% of the activity on that sim. Because it's only that one sim.
And avatars are much more often being kicked and banned by sim owners from party sims during parties and from RP sims during RP sessions than from freebie sims or landscape sims.
Besides, it is not specifically about Juno. It has never been specifically about Juno.
But Juno is a great example because she tends to have so much on her that may constitute an underage avatar. Either because it's on some sim owner's defined checklist of underage avatar attributes. Or because it triggers some sim owner's gut feelings that this avatar kinda sorta looks underage.
It's about Juno as much as it's about ALL avatars that have enough on them that Juno has, too. They're all just the same in danger of being wrongly kicked and banned for allegedly being underage. Not just Juno. In fact, many are even MORE in danger than Juno because Juno at least has a sizable pair of boobs which Athena Petite avatars don't have.
Why I've used Juno then? Well, I had the choice. Either use Juno as an example. Or comb the Hypergrid and search for bits and pieces to put together another female avatar with only the specific purpose of making one picture and showing demonstrating alleged child avatar criteria. Enormous effort to build something that's readily available already.
It was easier and more convenient to use Juno. Simple as that.
And it's more relatable if it's an avatar that actually walks around out there, goes shopping, goes partying, than if it's an avatar that was cobbled together for this one picture, never seen before and never to be seen again.
This whole topic would be a great deal easier to discuss if sim owners who label avatars potentially or actually underage by their looks laid their criteria for an underage look open, and if they did so in the descriptions of their sims right here in OSW.
If they consider all avatars under 6' underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they consider all Athena Petite avatars underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they consider avatars with twin pigtails underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they consider avatars wearing too bright colours underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they consider too light-skinned avatars underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they consider avatars covering up too much underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they discover new criteria for an underage look which they didn't even know exist until then, e.g. lips like in the above image as opposed to the big full lips that come with literally every last shape in every last female mesh head, then they should update their descriptions and explicitly say that this is not tolerated because it makes an avatar look like a kid.
Then and only then do we have rock-solid proof from sim owners what makes an avatar look underage. Then and only then can we discuss it without claiming that no avatar that doesn't wear a kiddie body will ever be considered underage.
"You look too young" without explaining WHAT EXACTLY makes an avatar look too young is too vague.
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If they consider all avatars under 6' underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they consider all Athena Petite avatars underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they consider avatars with twin pigtails underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they consider avatars wearing too bright colours underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they consider too light-skinned avatars underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they consider avatars covering up too much underage, they should explicitly say so.
If they discover new criteria for an underage look which they didn't even know exist until then, e.g. lips like in the above image as opposed to the big full lips that come with literally every last shape in every last female mesh head, then they should update their descriptions and explicitly say that this is not tolerated because it makes an avatar look like a kid.
Then and only then do we have rock-solid proof from sim owners what makes an avatar look underage. Then and only then can we discuss it without claiming that no avatar that doesn't wear a kiddie body will ever be considered underage.
"You look too young" without explaining WHAT EXACTLY makes an avatar look too young is too vague.
I relate to alot of what you're saying about Juno here Jupiter. I dress my avatar how I often dress in RL. I'm both a modest dresser and a casual dresser. Lots of t-shirts, sweaters and jeans. And almost always flat shoes. I don't enjoy heels so neither do my avatars very often. I also choose realistic to human heights. Here's my take on it. Well first of all I'm kind of a hermit so i don't go to a lot of parties...lol. But if I went to one and they kicked me out for not meeting a height criteria it's probably not a place I'd relate to anyway. I always admire avatars that look like realistic humans over the amazonian giants with muscles and curves falling out in all directions. I don't do much mesh which already makes me a weirdo luddite. And I'm always trying to work on shifting my regions and builds to reflect greater variety and diversity in gender, age and ability. So love your sock wearing granny clad Juno:)
Honestly, maybe I'm a kid at heart. I often see clothes advertised for kids in RL and wish there was a big person version of the little sweater with the big red magical looking fox on it. But in virtual worlds there can be XD
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Honestly, maybe I'm a kid at heart. I often see clothes advertised for kids in RL and wish there was a big person version of the little sweater with the big red magical looking fox on it. But in virtual worlds there can be XD
Well, I think that, unless they're really small, classic layer-and-prim avatars have the "privilege" of being considered old-fashioned weirdos or perpetually stuck under a rock before being considered underage.
Oh, and Juno's outfits that are considered granny looks usually don't include socks. They rather include too long skirts in combination with nylon without visible garters because it's a pair of tights. Plus medium-height heels which therefore aren't high enough. Also, jackets that don't fall into one of the usual two categories (midriff-baring short jackets, black leather biker jackets).
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Oh, and Juno's outfits that are considered granny looks usually don't include socks. They rather include too long skirts in combination with nylon without visible garters because it's a pair of tights. Plus medium-height heels which therefore aren't high enough. Also, jackets that don't fall into one of the usual two categories (midriff-baring short jackets, black leather biker jackets).
Are you just posting for attention? What we talk about is normally legit concerns. This reads to me like someone's trying to make light and joke of things. That photo of a avatar I would never consider to been child or teen by just the photo. Ageplay is a serious thing, and clearly you have no clue as to what the upset is really about. People can wear flat shoes and not be super curvy and not the tallest and still be considered adult it is not just those attributes. Clearly you did not do your proper research as you claim. One thing only might be true and that is if there is a scanner for height and if that height be below i don't know say 5 foot tall, then they might have a problem. Stop trying to Karen things! This fear mongering in reverse is just wild. People will add the rules and regulations they believe are appropriate. If the place is not for you then it's not for you. If you wish to go to places that have requested you respect their request for visitors and you can or won't do so then that would be on you. Opensimworld.com clearly posts the regions request for visitors by general, moderate and adult so that you are aware prior to making the visit / leap over. The fact people act surprised at this time is just wild. Every place may not be for every body. Though it would be nice if there were no worries or concerns then we could do as they say and " Just all get along "... example: You are a vegetarian and yet you keep going to a steak house all mad cause they don't cater to you? or Your a meat lover who keeps going to the soup or salad restaurant and then get all mad cause they don't cater to you either. Better yet you are a teen going to real life adult club and they won't let you in because your not supposed to be there and then get mad about it. Just saying! ( The above note is my personal opinion and does not reflect any specific location or person or persons). I can not speak for everyone per say but this is my personal perspective and via years in virtual world, tons of evidence and work within many grids on more than one world this is my opinion.
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I hit "like" on your comment because I like your call for common sense, but I also have some issues with it. As usual when we get into a "We must protect the babies!" topic, common sense goes right out the window and Opensimword is not immune to that. Instead you end up with the extreme... a small minority of people going on some hypocritical "woke" campaign against child avitars in general, or entire regions targeted for vague and often unsubstantiated claims. Only recently i was at Lliba and was asked to leave or change my appearance because I looked "too young". My avi AND me are 5'6 and I had on an athena petite body and an outfit very similar to the image above. Long sleeves, long pants. Not even any pink clothing. I thought it was crazy, but I agreed to leave. So the idea the idea that we "are aware prior to making the visit" of what to expect is not exactly true when there are a lot of (often hypocritical) agendas at play. Maybe the OP is being a Karen or seeking attention, but to me THAT kind of situation is a problem.
Personally, I would like to throw out a challenge to everyone. Let's see if we can all go ONE WEEK without a single post regarding child avatars or the dreaded "ageplay" topic. I am betting hard money it can't be done. There are simply too many agendas at play.
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Personally, I would like to throw out a challenge to everyone. Let's see if we can all go ONE WEEK without a single post regarding child avatars or the dreaded "ageplay" topic. I am betting hard money it can't be done. There are simply too many agendas at play.
Though I can understand frustration if you no matter what the issues is was not able to gain the access or was denied access somewhere for any reason. However, I have not seen sodasullivan avatar, at this time or that i recal, nor know anything of any sort about you or your avatar nor do I have anything to do with the land you speak of. I think you went ,off in left field somewhere with your comments. Again, we all know what is what. Why are you still going on the subject? In order for that to work you would have to stop replying, not sure you can do that. Can you? Also, stop trying to milk people for money Sodasullivan.
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"Only recently i was at Lliba and was asked to leave or change my appearance because I looked "too young". My avi AND me are 5'6 and I had on an athena petite body and an outfit very similar to the image above. Long sleeves, long pants. Not even any pink clothing. I thought it was crazy, but I agreed to leave."
This. This so very much.
Many people claim that the only thing that could flag an avatar underage is an automated childgate configured to a minimum of 180cm or 6'. They claim that avatars would never be considered underage just by their looks. Until someone writes that exactly this has happened to their own avatar.
Even then, some either don't believe it, or they think their avatar, while not fully conforming to OpenSim standards, is safe. Until it surprisingly, unexpectedly happens to their very own avatar.
Those who still keep denying it, and I guess they're still the vast majority here, have female avatars that fully conform to the "professional San Fernando Valley porn star meets Kardashian family member, and the whole Hypergrid is Malibu or Ibiza in summer always and everywhere" standard. I guess they're staring at the above image in disbelief that it's even possible to build such an avatar, much less that someone has actually done it and, worse yet, sticks with it as a daily driver.
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This. This so very much.
Many people claim that the only thing that could flag an avatar underage is an automated childgate configured to a minimum of 180cm or 6'. They claim that avatars would never be considered underage just by their looks. Until someone writes that exactly this has happened to their own avatar.
Even then, some either don't believe it, or they think their avatar, while not fully conforming to OpenSim standards, is safe. Until it surprisingly, unexpectedly happens to their very own avatar.
Those who still keep denying it, and I guess they're still the vast majority here, have female avatars that fully conform to the "professional San Fernando Valley porn star meets Kardashian family member, and the whole Hypergrid is Malibu or Ibiza in summer always and everywhere" standard. I guess they're staring at the above image in disbelief that it's even possible to build such an avatar, much less that someone has actually done it and, worse yet, sticks with it as a daily driver.
Sim owners declaring avatars underage just by their looks can go and actually has gone further than you might imagine.
I know someone whose female avatar was kicked and banned from a sim for the combination of being under 6' (no childgate, just visual "child avatar recognition"), Athena Petite and wearing too much pink. Wearing too much pink. I'm not even kidding. And the avatar does look quite sexy otherwise.
And I think I actually recall a discussion on what makes an underage avatar. Hair style was mentioned, as was skin tone.
I mean, as long as you're a regular Athena of at least 6' with a deep tan and a long lush mane, perpetually scantily clad in what little skin-tight clothing is required and always walking on spike heels of not unter 6", you've got nothing to fear.
But deviate far enough to the wrong side (and Legacy, eBody Reborn and Decadence-HG are not the wrong side), and you might get into trouble.
Also, keep in mind that the child avatar definition that you know from the past is likely not to stay the same. Especially since that SL drama, sim owners are raising the defences. The definition will become more extreme.
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I know someone whose female avatar was kicked and banned from a sim for the combination of being under 6' (no childgate, just visual "child avatar recognition"), Athena Petite and wearing too much pink. Wearing too much pink. I'm not even kidding. And the avatar does look quite sexy otherwise.
And I think I actually recall a discussion on what makes an underage avatar. Hair style was mentioned, as was skin tone.
I mean, as long as you're a regular Athena of at least 6' with a deep tan and a long lush mane, perpetually scantily clad in what little skin-tight clothing is required and always walking on spike heels of not unter 6", you've got nothing to fear.
But deviate far enough to the wrong side (and Legacy, eBody Reborn and Decadence-HG are not the wrong side), and you might get into trouble.
Also, keep in mind that the child avatar definition that you know from the past is likely not to stay the same. Especially since that SL drama, sim owners are raising the defences. The definition will become more extreme.
Pagane, no offense, but there's a very good reason why wikipedia isn't accepted a reliable source in any serious conversation.
Citing wikipedia only diminishes any point you're trying to make.
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Citing wikipedia only diminishes any point you're trying to make.
You're talking about a scripted system that omits avatars of a certain height. Now if you're going with the assumption that all persons choosing an avatar that falls under the "child gate" height is an actual RL Little Person then what you're actually accusing someone of is discrimination or perhaps ableism. Racism is a particular discrimation levied at persons with particular skin tones or cultural characteristics or behaviours by persons who wrongly feel skin tones or cultural aspects of a person can be lesser than any other skin tone or cultural aspect. It is most often systemic or fueled by systems/governments/establishments where prejudice meets power. Those with the power try to wrongfully oppress those who are perceived as having less power.
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Modern racism is somethin other. Like this what you invite here. Abuse with science and technology .... read what write the great scientists.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism
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LOL don't hurt yourself with that stretch. There is not a SINGLE theorist or reference in that entire page that falls into what you are categorizing as racism. Stop co-opting the term. Here is a better summary: https://library.harvard.edu/confronting-anti-black-racism/...
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Sorry, but as it turns out, the rules are being enforced by groups with blatantly racist and pedophile criteria. The woman in OpenSIM must be a two-meter mare with a kilo of silicone in each teat, a pumped up curvy ass and a perky hip. Those are the rules.
Your little sister is unacceptable!!!
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Your little sister is unacceptable!!!
When the eBody Reborn hype started, I unironically expected Athena to be demoted to teen and Athena Petite to be declared pre-teen at best.
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I have to say from experiencing it from others that "height" is not the issue. Robin is petite in RL, and had been ejecting in SL OS due to the height issue. SO I have to concur with others here, that it is not specifically the height, but more or less the disposition, attire, type of AO, childish attitude, etc. that determine if it is a petite adult or an intended, obvious child.
It boils down to what MOST lack these days, common sense.
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It boils down to what MOST lack these days, common sense.
Unfortunately, it's impossible to completely eliminate malicious intent through online policing alone. However, we can establish clear guidelines and enforce them strictly to create a safer environment. In the past child avatars had the undergarments "painted on the skin" but people who use them for other reasons bend these rules. Same with the adult furniture. I am not sure what the answer is but I feel OS needs to be a safe place where even children can explore (most are adults acting as children, but still.) All the beauty and magic of a new region to explore, do you remember what that feels like? Exploring and meeting new friends, to collaborate and build new dreams. That is my opensim. My regions are all marked to G, no sex allowed.
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I have made kid avs with painted on undewear. Underwear or a swimsuit. People can switch between. But sadly I know people could still reskin them and make horrible choices. The only part I can control is what I offer. I think the G regions might be the way to go. Then anyone can be anything.
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I am 5.45 feet tall.....4 inches shorter than Juno. If her height is an issue, then I am in major trouble ; )
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Me too, my avatar is 5' 7" tall. As a matter of fact, the average height for a woman in the developed world is around 5' 4" and not the apparently obligatory 7' of Opensim!
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The real issue is not little people but little people in sexual or erotic poses. That is how the SL legal eagles differentiate it and how most RL laws define the problem. In SL they even go as far as potentially banning a child on adult furniture whereas, many grids here go above and beyond that even and ban smaller avatars outright, Cyberglow's Overwatch script should maybe focus on punting avatars below a certain height from sitting on A rated furniture or poses. That would be more inline with what the actual laws prohibit.
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